Wait. The White Horse prophecy isn't doctrine?

[_DarkHelmet]

I think what DarkHelmet did was search on constitution thread.

Yep. And it only took a few seconds. Doesn't Purdy realize that people have internet access and can easily find what the church teaches in it's own materials?

Did you read the links?

Here is what Purdy says:

The Church perspective is this: It’s not our doctrine, it’s not taught in our meetings,

The first link is from a church lesson manual. It says:

Share the following statement of Brigham Young about the Constitution of the United States:

Note that this is an instruction to the teacher to share this statement with the students in the class. In other words, a correlated manual is instructing the teachers to teach this:

“The general Constitution of our country is good, and a wholesome government could be framed upon it, for it was dictated by the invisible operations of the Almighty. . . .

“Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; It will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘the time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread; at that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so” (Journal History, July 4, 1854, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

Now compare what Purdy says:

it’s not taught in our meetings

To what is taught:

Joseph Smith said, ‘the time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread; at that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’

Why say this prophecy is not taught unless it is embarrassing?

The second link is an additional resource for that lesson. So even though the teacher is not specifically told to share it with the class, it is offered to the teacher as an additional resource:

Dean C. Jessee, “Joseph Smith’s 19 July 1840 Discourse,” in James B. Allen, ed., “The Historians Corner,” Brigham Young University Studies, Spring 1979, pp. 390–94.

Explains the sources for Joseph Smith’s statement that the constitution would hang by a thread.

So, why are members perfectly comfortable teaching and discussing this prophecy in class, talking about it with other members, but then they all of a sudden get embarrassed when the media asks about it?

[_Stormy Waters]

Yep. And it only took a few seconds. Doesn't Purdy realize that people have internet access and can easily find what the church teaches in it's own materials?

Maybe the church should take a page out of 1984 and have someone go through church literature and revise it as needed.

[_Buffalo]

Yep. And it only took a few seconds. Doesn't Purdy realize that people have internet access and can easily find what the church teaches in it's own materials?

Maybe the church should take a page out of 1984 and have someone go through church literature and revise it as needed.

They've done some of that. Packer's infamous "little factories" talk is now nowhere to be found.

[_DarkHelmet]

They've done some of that. Packer's infamous "little factories" talk is now nowhere to be found.

Mark E Peterson's masturbation pamphlet is also impossible to find from any church source. Fortunately, members from the 70s and 80s have hard copies of these documents.

[_Darth J]

Yep. And it only took a few seconds. Doesn't Purdy realize that people have internet access and can easily find what the church teaches in it's own materials?

Maybe the church should take a page out of 1984 and have someone go through church literature and revise it as needed.

I'm pretty sure the LDS Church would never do something like that. Cf. The Lectures on Faith, The Book of Commandments, The Book of Mormon

[_MCB]

Whoops-- back to the drawing board. Sandra says this:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/whi ... ophecy.htm

I have been busy with Biblical stuff.

[_DarkHelmet]

One thing I've always wondered is how the elders of Zion will save the constitution. What does it mean that the constitution will hang by a thread, and the brethren will need to save it? The constitution is a secular document that defines the three branches of government, their duties and responsibilities, and the rights of the citizens. It establishes the US as a republic with no state religion. So why would Mormon elders need to save a secular document? Mormons believe Christ is coming soon and he will setup a theocracy. When the theocracy is established, the US Constitution is going in the garbage anyway so why does it matter?

[_Darth J]

One thing I've always wondered is how the elders of Zion will save the constitution. What does it mean that the constitution will hang by a thread, and the brethren will need to save it? The constitution is a secular document that defines the three branches of government, their duties and responsibilities, and the rights of the citizens. It establishes the US as a republic with no state religion. So why would Mormon elders need to save a secular document? Mormons believe Christ is coming soon and he will setup a theocracy. When the theocracy is established, the US Constitution is going in the garbage anyway so why does it matter?

What it means is that a great many people do not understand that the Constitution is positive law and a secular document. They see it as codifying their cherished beliefs and value judgments. That's why Mormons, who allegedly think that free agency is part of God's plan, very often cannot wrap their brains around the concept that the Constitution protects other people's rights to do things you don't approve of.

And if you talk to the Glenn Beck/Cleon Skousen type of Mormons who get excited about the White Horse Prophecy, you will find that they do indeed anticipate that the United States will be "restored" to the benign theocracy that the Founders supposedly intended this country to be.

[_TrashcanMan79]

For bcspace:

"God’s Hand in the Founding of America" by L. Tom Perry, New Era, July 1976

Our commitment to America has been testified to by many, but I will point out to you special witnesses who have indicated our responsibilities to this land.

First from Brigham Young, second president of the Church: “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15.)

Now another witness, John Taylor, third president of the Church: “When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth, and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations.” (The Gospel Kingdom, Deseret Book Co., 1943, p. 219.) This is part of the program.

A final witness is from George Q. Cannon, former member of the First Presidency, who said that “the day will come when the Constitution and free government under it will be sustained and preserved by this people.” (JD, 23:104.)

Now, I declare to you that if we are not in the beginning stages of the fulfillment of this prophecy, we are at least in the stages where we are preparing for its fulfillment.

[_TrashcanMan79]

LDS.org vs MormonNewsroom.org:

What do we know about the purported statement of Joseph Smith that the Constitution would hang by a thread and that the elders would save it?

D. Michael Stewart, Brigham Young University, Department of History The documents show that Joseph Smith did prophesy a number of times that the United States and the Constitution would be imperiled and that the elders would have a hand in saving them. The first known record of the prophecy dates to July 19, 1840, in Nauvoo, when the prophet spoke about the redemption of Zion. Using Doctrine & Covenants 101 as a text, he said, “Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844.)

There are also other documents in Church History files that show that five different early Saints recorded some remarks by the Prophet Joseph Smith on this same prophecy, perhaps voiced by the Prophet a number of times in a number of ways after 1840. Parley P. Pratt wrote in 1841 that the prophet said, “The government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of Blood and cannot stand as it now is but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair!!!!! Then the servants goes [sic] to the nations of the earth, and gathers the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army!!!!!! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” (George A. Smith Papers, Church Archives, Box 7, Folder 5, January 21, 1841.)

James Burgess related that the Prophet, while addressing the Nauvoo Legion several miles east of Nauvoo in May 1843, said that “the time would come when the constitution and government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the latter-day saints will step forth and save it.” (James Burgess Journal, 1818–1904, Church Archives, vol. 1—found among loose sermons.)

Orson Hyde recalled that the Prophet predicted that “the time would come that the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow and said he, if the constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language as nearly as I can recollect it.” (JD, 6:150.)

In a Pioneer Day celebration in Ogden in 1871, Eliza R. Snow said, “I heard the prophet say, ‘The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints—the Elders of Israel—will step forward to its rescue and save it.” (Journal History, MSF 143 #28, July 24, 1871.)

Jedediah M. Grant, during the dark days of threatened invasion of Utah by a federal army, referred to the Prophet’s utterance as he addressed a Mormon Battalion gathering in Salt Lake City, February 6, 1855.

“What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe.” (Deseret News Weekly, January 19, 1870.)

On various occasions, Joseph Smith referred to the Constitution, the country, and destiny of the nation; and there is clear evidence that he anticipated future peril. Furthermore, he pronounced the prophecy at various times and places. Perhaps he himself interchanged the simile “on the brink of ruin,” “hang by a brittle thread,” “hang by a single hair,” etc., to describe the anticipated crisis. It is also clear that the redeemers or rescuers of the Constitution were to be either the Saints generally or priesthood officers specifically.

Since no particular time was given for fulfilling this prophecy, members of the Church have often wondered about its timing. The prophecy clearly indicates a single, identifiable episode yet to come.

vs

The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine.