Tobin wrote:Where did I state you should have faith based on feelings? I said have rock solid evidence of God and use that as the basis of your faith. Mormonism, by design, is based on a high bar of preposterous notions that do not occur everyday. For example, Joseph Smith saw God, angels, and a gold book. I would imagine any investigator of Mormonism would demand similar evidence before having faith in Joseph Smith or the book he produced, wouldn't you?
So why do no investigators see God. I don't know any members who have, but then I thought you considered LDS apostate. Did you really see God or was it just a being as you described in another post. Did it tell you the Book of Mormon was true history? How about the Book of Abraham or Joseph as God prophet.
So did God appear to Tobin in his bedroom one night? Was Tobin caught up into the heavens? Even so, it was nothing more than loss of blood to your brain or drinking too much. Or mushrooms, or aliens who run this planet. The god of the Bible is pure fantasy.
I don't believe your witness, Tobin, that you know there is a God. Prove it.
Shulem wrote:I don't believe your witness, Tobin, that you know there is a God. Prove it.
Everyone knows there's nothing Tobin can tell us or even himself to avoid the truth that he's fooled himself into thinking the source of whatever he experienced can be trusted.
He leaped to that conclusion first and then worked backwards to prove it to himself.
Tobin has no idea whether his experience happened because Mormonism is true or because aliens like to “F” with humans beings and make us think they're Gods. I hear they like to do that.
But he accepts only one explanation and rejects all others. Why? Because the explanation he instinctively prefers says so, of course.
Shulem wrote:I don't believe your witness, Tobin, that you know there is a God. Prove it.
Everyone knows there's nothing Tobin can tell us or even himself to avoid the truth that he's fooled himself into thinking the source of whatever he experienced can be trusted.
He leaped to that conclusion first and then worked backwards to prove it to himself.
Tobin has no idea whether his experience happened because Mormonism is true or because aliens like to f*** with humans beings and make us think they're Gods. I hear they like to do that.
But he accepts only one explanation and rejects all others. Why? Because the explanation he instinctively prefers says so, of course.
Or in other words, I have faith. And pointing out the obvious doesn't take much thought nor intelligence. Of course I would view my experience through my own understanding and background.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Or in other words, I have faith. And pointing out the obvious doesn't take much thought nor intelligence . Of course I would view my experience through my own understanding and background.
Or in other words, you've fooled yourself.
You've fooled yourself into thinking that faith is good enough to determine which paradigm to trust because the paradigm you already have faith in said faith is good enough.
You're right, it doesn't take much thought nor intelligence to point out that your mind is subject to a self-protecting system of thought designed to only serve belief in itself... because it feels right and you're addicted to this feeling.
I'm not really interested in going back and forth on this point. Just go ahead and admit that you have faith in one paradigm rather than another simply because it's been of practical use and has zero epistemic value.
Tobin wrote:Or in other words, I have faith. And pointing out the obvious doesn't take much thought nor intelligence . Of course I would view my experience through my own understanding and background.
Or in other words, you've fooled yourself.
You've fooled yourself into thinking that faith is good enough to determine which paradigm to trust because the paradigm you already have faith in said faith is good enough.
You're right, it doesn't take much thought nor intelligence to point out that your mind is subject to a self-protecting system of thought designed to only serve belief in itself... because it feels right and you're addicted to this feeling.
I'm not really interested in going back and forth on this point. Just go ahead and admit that you have faith in one paradigm rather than another simply because it's been of practical use and has zero epistemic value.
Of course, it must be a delusion. You must be one of those that state the scriptural accounts of God are men and women of faith just fooling themselves as well. If that is your explanation for Judaism/Christianity/Mormonism and all of it - have fun. However, the one fooling themselves may just be you.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Of course, it must be a delusion. You must be one of those that state the scriptural accounts of God are men and women of faith just fooling themselves as well. If that is your explanation for Judaism/Christianity/Mormonism and all of it - have fun. However, the one fooling themselves may just be you.
I think you're a little bit confused so let me clarify.
What must be a delusion is your conclusion that the source of your experience can be trusted to reveal itself. That is, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary. Have fun.
Tobin wrote:Of course, it must be a delusion. You must be one of those that state the scriptural accounts of God are men and women of faith just fooling themselves as well. If that is your explanation for Judaism/Christianity/Mormonism and all of it - have fun. However, the one fooling themselves may just be you.
I think you're a little bit confused so let me clarify.
What must be a delusion is your conclusion that the source of your experience can be trusted to reveal itself. That is, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary. Have fun.
I'm not trying to prove to you my faith is true. If you wish to know that for yourself, you'll have to ask God. This delusion you call it, or faith in a supreme being that the rest of us (~ 95% of the human population on the planet) share, is something you have to obtain yourself. It is interesting that you would think the overwhelming majority of the rest of humanity is crazy. Maybe you should consider that it is you that is deluded.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I'm not trying to prove to you my faith is true. If you wish to know that for yourself, you'll have to ask God. This delusion you call it, or faith in a supreme being that the rest of us (~ 95% of the human population on the planet) share, is something you have to obtain yourself. It is interesting that you would think the overwhelming majority of the rest of humanity is crazy. Maybe you should consider that it is you that is deluded.
Asking God and getting feelings and thoughts back for a response is not an answer that takes one beyond faith. You asked God and you're still in the conditions of faith. You don't know whether you're really communicating with a God or whether your mind is just playing with itself. Did God appear before you? Riiiiiiight.
People of all religions on this planet have faith in God. There is nothing wrong with that. I think spiritual living can be healthy and normal if that is what works for you. Have at it. I've done that too. Yes, have had many prayers and spirititual experiences that were pretty neat. All that within the bounds of faith. But I don't live by faith anymore and have outgrown the need to have a God or a savior to help poor little me. I live by myself and trust in myself because I'm my own god. I save myself! I love myself so much that I think the universe revolves around me and it makes me want to be good.