Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I do have Google. I am also living in a Muslim country where websites that defame the Prophet or Islam are blocked.

Thanks for your quote, though. It shows that I was wrong and or did not look hard enough.

It's always interesting to me how telling the truth is character defamation. Whether it's Joseph Smith destroying a printing press or a Muslim country blocking the Internet, religious fanatics don't like it when their actions are exposed.

- VRDRC

[_Chap]

You're comparing Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? WOW! Is all I can say.

So, in what significant way was Warren Jeffs' behavior regarding the taking of multiple wives and having sex with underaged girls different from that of Joseph Smith?

Most people outside the LDS Church who think about this at all will understand that Jeffs was only doing exactly what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught (by example) in this regard.

The difference? Ray has been a member of a church that taught him to regard Joseph Smith as a revered and saintly prophet. He has not been a member of a church that taught him to regard Warren Jeffs as a revered and saintly prophet.

And of course, Warren Jeffs is doing his stuff in the 20th century, where there is the internet, TV, the newspapers. and an efficient police and court system. Had all those things been available in Joseph Smith's time, my bet is that he would have ended up in the same situation as is Jeffs now: mailing out 'revelation' from a jail cell (I had the privilege of receiving one of these myself ...).

[_RayAgostini]

The difference? Ray has been a member of a church that taught him to regard Joseph Smith as a revered and saintly prophet. He has not been a member of a church that taught him to regard Warren Jeffs as a revered and saintly prophet.

And of course, Warren Jeffs is doing his stuff in the 20th century, where there is the internet, TV, the newspapers. and an efficient police and court system. Had all those things been available in Joseph Smith's time, my bet is that he would have ended up in the same situation as is Jeffs now: mailing out 'revelation' from a jail cell (I had the privilege of receiving one of these myself ...).

Hi, Chap. I hope things are well with you, and that life is treating you well.

[_EAllusion]

I guess it depends on how you define "will" Ray. Her default state wasn't a desire to marry Smith. He had to pressure her using his religious authority and making theological claims with potentially threatening consequences if she didn't accept. And she still wasn't convinced until she fell ill and interpreted that as punishment from God for having rejected Smith. That strikes me as being coerced into a choice, which is against one's will, but your mileage may vary.

[_RayAgostini]

I guess it depends on how you define "will" Ray. Her default state wasn't a desire to marry Smith. He had to pressure her using his religious authority and making theological claims with potentially threatening consequences if she didn't accept. And she still wasn't convinced until she fell ill and interpreted that as punishment from God for having rejected Smith. That strikes me as being coerced into a choice, which is against one's will, but your mileage may vary.

I guess I was coerced into Catholicism, EA. Because that's all I knew, and was taught as a child.

Is that a bad analogy?

[_DrW]

I do have Google. I am also living in a Muslim country where websites that defame the Prophet or Islam are blocked.

If you don't mind me asking, what country is this, and what has been your experience with Muslims?

I am now living in Oman. Omanis have a reputation for being religiously moderate and relatively friendly to westerners, and I have found that to be the case.

Unlike KSA, the authorities here remain very low profile and everyone does pretty much as they please. Unlike KSA, one can actually sleep through morning prayers without being awakened by the mulla in the local mosque at zero dark thirty.

As a westerner, it seems that I am well respected here. I try to fit in.

The key to success here is to have a good local partner. And we have one. On a typical day, my main business interaction here is with two female administrators, one of whom speaks excellent English, drives a new Mercedes, and spends a lot of time in Europe.

The only reason I know that she is drop-dead gorgeous is that she shows me pictures of her touring Europe in western attire. Here she remains covered head to toe in black, even when it is 120 degrees outside, like it is right now.

As in the rest of the Gulf, the place is being built by Indians and Pakistanis, who are managed by nationals (Omanis in this case) with Europeans and Americans as technical advisors.

As in the rest of the Gulf, Mormons are allowed to hold meetings in private homes on Friday's (the Islamic Sabbath). No open display of the Book of Mormon is allowed here.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for asking.

[_RayAgostini]

I am now living in Oman. Omanis have a reputation for being religiously moderate and relatively friendly to westerners, and I have found that to be the case.

Unlike KSA, the authorities here remain very low profile and everyone does pretty much as they please. Unlike KSA one can actually sleep through morning prayers without being awakened by the mulla in the local mosque at zero dark thirty.

As a westerner, it seems that I am well respected here and seem to carry more swing weight than I would in the States or Europe, for example. I try to fit in.

The key to success here is to have a good local partner. And we have one. On a typical day, my main business interaction here is with two female administrators, one of whom speaks excellent English, drives a new Mercedes, and spends a lot of time in Europe.

As in the rest of the Gulf, the place is being built by Indians and Pakistanis, who are managed by nationals (Omanis in this case) with Europeans and Americans as technical advisors.

As in the rest of the Gulf, Mormons are allowed to hold meetings in private homes on Friday's (the Islamic Sabbath). No open display of the Book of Mormon is allowed here.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for that report, and answering my questions.

So if you posted negative things about Muhammad, you could, to put it mildly, be in deep crap?

That's the really great thing about America. You can defile, defame and slander anyone who claims to be a prophet, and kick Mormonism to kingdom come.

Do that in Oman in regard to Islam, and you can kiss your ass goodbye.

Just saying.

Now do continue with your slander and character assassination of Joseph Smith, but appreciate that in Oman, if you said the same things about Muhammad, you'd be hanging by the balls.

[_DrW]

I am now living in Oman. Omanis have a reputation for being religiously moderate and relatively friendly to westerners, and I have found that to be the case.

Unlike KSA, the authorities here remain very low profile and everyone does pretty much as they please. Unlike KSA one can actually sleep through morning prayers without being awakened by the mulla in the local mosque at zero dark thirty.

As a westerner, it seems that I am well respected here and seem to carry more swing weight than I would in the States or Europe, for example. I try to fit in.

The key to success here is to have a good local partner. And we have one. On a typical day, my main business interaction here is with two female administrators, one of whom speaks excellent English, drives a new Mercedes, and spends a lot of time in Europe.

As in the rest of the Gulf, the place is being built by Indians and Pakistanis, who are managed by nationals (Omanis in this case) with Europeans and Americans as technical advisors.

As in the rest of the Gulf, Mormons are allowed to hold meetings in private homes on Friday's (the Islamic Sabbath). No open display of the Book of Mormon is allowed here.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for that report, and answering my questions.

So if you posted negative things about Muhammad, you could, to put it mildly, be in deep s***?

That's the really great thing about America. You can defile, defame and slander anyone who claims to be a prophet, and kick Mormonism to kingdom come.

Do that in Oman in regard to Islam, and you can kiss your ass goodbye.

Just saying.

Now do continue with your slander and character assassination of Joseph Smith, but appreciate that in Oman, if you said the same things about Muhammad, you'd be hanging by the balls.

If I were in Saudi Arabia (KSA) where I used to live, I probably would not be hung, but might be thrown in jail for a few days while they were arranging my deportation. I would then be deported with an invitation never to return.

In Oman, I would probably just be politely reminded that such things are not done here. If I persisted, I would be politely asked to leave.

However, the fact that I do not choose to defame the Prophet Muhammad does not mean that he was not guilty (as was pointed out to me earlier).

Same with Joseph Smith - just because the truth about his behavior is not taught in LDS Sunday School does not mean that he is really innocent when it comes to his many crimes.

When it comes to libel and slander, truth is a defense in almost all situations.
(An exception to this rule includes the true statements regarding someone's ill health and there are one or two more which I do not recall just now.)

So technically, since Joseph Smith actually did the things of which he stands accused (see the Steel Head post above), saying so does not constitute libel or slander.

[_RayAgostini]

Same with Joseph Smith - just because the truth about his behavior is not taught in LDS Sunday School does not mean that he is really innocent when it comes to his many crimes.

When it comes to libel and slander, truth is a defense in almost all situations.
(An exception to this rule includes the true statements regarding someone's ill health and there are one or two more which I do not recall just now.)

So technically, since Joseph Smith actually did the things of which he stands accused (see the Steel Head post above), saying so does not constitute libel or slander.

Have your opinion, Dr. W., and peace be upon you, notwithstanding our differences of opinion.

I suppose the usual and standard ridicule will follow this.

Joseph Smith - First Vision - part 2.

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? (Isaiah 29)

Good night, Dr.W.

[_Chap]

The difference? Ray has been a member of a church that taught him to regard Joseph Smith as a revered and saintly prophet. He has not been a member of a church that taught him to regard Warren Jeffs as a revered and saintly prophet.

And of course, Warren Jeffs is doing his stuff in the 20th century, where there is the internet, TV, the newspapers. and an efficient police and court system. Had all those things been available in Joseph Smith's time, my bet is that he would have ended up in the same situation as is Jeffs now: mailing out 'revelation' from a jail cell (I had the privilege of receiving one of these myself ...).

Hi, Chap. I hope things are well with you, and that life is treating you well.

Thanks for asking. It has been a good week - the guards let me have extra toilet paper, and I managed to sneak extra stale bread to feed my pet cockroach. Hope you are doing even better!