Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"

[_Chap]

You brought it up in a unrelated thread? Why did you?

Because I'm sick and tired of posters like you and others inciting prejudice and hatred against Joseph Smith where it's totally unnecessary.

That Joseph Smith used promises of salvation for her and her family as a way to manipulate a 14 year old into a secret marriage.

Funny that Heber and Violate never objected,....

Hilarious Freudian slip there ...

[Guest]

You don't have a defensible position here. You should probably just stop calling attention to Joseph Smith's behavior. Like millions of others, it makes me embarrassed that I was ever a member of the LDS Church.
______________

Yes, I said millions. Although the LDS Church claims membership of 14 million, non-LDS academic sociologists who study Mormonism concluded in 2010 that there were only about 5 million active members of the LDS Church world wide. That leaves some 9 million who don't attend Church, or do so very rarely. It is a safe bet that a large proportion (several million) of these 9 million or so are embarrassed that they ever participated in the LDS Church.

I'm not embarrassed. In the least. And I'd gladly own it again were I so divinely directed. Your statement reminds me, though, of this:

21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (1 Ne.8)

But please yourself, Dr. W, and continue the mocking if it makes you feel better.

Would my quoting to you from the Quran (in which billions of people believe) be likely to change your worldview or behavior?

No?

Then why would you think quoting from the Book of Mormon, in which only a few million believe (and me certainly not among them), would have any effect on mine?

[_beefcalf]

In the Old Testament, priests had the power to "atone", through the Law of Moses:

32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest’s office in his father’s stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses. (Lev.16)

After the death and resurrection of the Messiah, he could likewise appoint his prophets to make judgements on his behalf. His word, whether it be by His own mouth, or the mouth of His servants the Prophets, would be the same.

That would depend on whether one held Joseph Smith in the same esteem and authority as the ancient Prophets.

It appears that Helen Mar so held him.

Smith claimed to have restored the true church to the earth. His justification of polygamy, If I recall correctly, was rooted in the Old Testament. As you well know, polygamy is still a doctrine of the LDS church, as outlined in D&C section 132. What is the modern, LDS equivalent of this 'everlasting statute' of atonement? After four decades as a Mormon, I have no recollection of participating in such an ordinance. If you are saying that Smith did indeed restore this Old Testament practice, with regard to Helen Mar Kimball, it seems safe to conclude that the church is now in a state of apostasy, given that these yearly atonement-for-all festivals seem not to have been practiced since the early days of the church. Am I missing something?

[_RayAgostini]

Smith claimed to have restored the true church to the earth. His justification of polygamy, If I recall correctly, was rooted in the Old Testament. As you well know, polygamy is still a doctrine of the LDS church, as outlined in D&C section 132. What is the modern, LDS equivalent of this 'everlasting statute' of atonement? After four decades as a Mormon, I have no recollection of participating in such an ordinance. If you are saying that Smith did indeed restore this Old Testament practice, with regard to Helen Mar Kimball, it seems safe to conclude that the church is now in a state of apostasy, given that these yearly atonement-for-all festivals seem not to have been practiced since the early days of the church. Am I missing something?

I don't relish the idea of polygamy, beef, and I don't feel particularly good defending it. But it's very possible, almost to a certainty, that it is still believed, if not practiced.

Joseph taught doctrines which he said might cause men to rise up and cut his throat. When I first read that I couldn't imagine what he might be referring to. I later learned that it was, without question, the polygamy issue. And today, on forums like MDB, we see all the "cut-throats" in action. I could never have guessed it.

[_Chap]

...

Joseph taught doctrines which he said might cause men to rise up and cut his throat. When I first read that I couldn't imagine what he might be referring to. I later learned that it was, without question, the polygamy issue. And today, on forums like MDB, we see all the "cut-throats" in action. I could never have guessed it.

Over-dramatize much? Nobody here is cutting throats, even with scare-quotes.

However, Joseph Smith's behavior with regard to women makes me rise up and say "It figures. Yup, he was a fraud all right, and got what he could while he could."

[_RayAgostini]

Over-dramatize much? Nobody here is cutting throats, even with scare-quotes.

However, Joseph Smith's behavior with regard to women makes me rise up and say "It figures. Yup, he was a fraud all right, and got what he could while he could."

No dramatisation, and no exaggeration:

"Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me." Brigham arose and said, "Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize."

(As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55 (September 4, 1893): 585.)

[_SteelHead]

The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.

~Con Man: Stone looking for treasure that he never produced, while charging for said services.
~Liar: "I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclemation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives....This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this....What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjerurs"
~Fraud: Kirtland bank
~Polygamist: Beyond a doubt
~Adulterer: None of his polygamist marriages were legally recognized, some occurred before the restoration of the sealing power........
~Sexual Predator: Fanny Alger et al.

[_DrW]

The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.

~Con Man: Stone looking for treasure that he never produced, while charging for said services.
~Liar: "I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclemation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives....This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this....What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjerurs"
~Fraud: Kirtland bank
~Polygamist: Beyond a doubt
~Adulterer: None of his polygamist marriages were legally recognized, some occurred before the restoration of the sealing power........
~Sexual Predator: Fanny Alger et al.

Ray should be back to respond shortly.

[_RayAgostini]

Ray should be back to respond shortly.

I don't pay much attention to MDB apostates.

[_SteelHead]

Ray should be back to respond shortly.

I don't pay much attention to MDB apostates.

Was that said sarcastically? As everything you do on this board is in response to MDB apostates.