DrW wrote:Same with Joseph Smith - just because the truth about his behavior is not taught in LDS Sunday School does not mean that he is really innocent when it comes to his many crimes.
When it comes to libel and slander, truth is a defense in almost all situations. (An exception to this rule includes the true statements regarding someone's ill health and there are one or two more which I do not recall just now.)
So technically, since Joseph Smith actually did the things of which he stands accused (see the Steel Head post above), saying so does not constitute libel or slander.
Have your opinion, Dr. W., and peace be upon you, notwithstanding our differences of opinion.
I suppose the usual and standard ridicule will follow this.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? (Isaiah 29)
Good night, Dr.W.
Good Night, Ray.
Peace be upon you, as well.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
“I don’t believe in God,” my husband whispered in the darkness of our bedroom.
My breath caught, and I was afraid to look at him, this boy I met and married eight years ago.
My conversation with the Mother of My Children (MOMC) was very similar in nature. After a night of reading exmormon.org exit stories I realized I didn't believe. That was that. All those years of making excuses for all the Mormon nonsense went away, and I was left with disbelief. The next morning I sat her down, and told her I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. The news literally caused her to gasp. She then asked me if I still believed in God. I said no.
We were divorcing shortly thereafter much to my unhappiness; not so much because of losing her, but because it would tear my family apart.
The price to pay for evolving one way or another can be steep, but in the end I think it's best to be honest with your spouse and let the cards play out. Anything else is deception, and an attempt to control. I suppose the only acceptable reason to maintain a faithful facade is if you have a sweet job. :D
- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
“I don’t believe in God,” my husband whispered in the darkness of our bedroom.
My breath caught, and I was afraid to look at him, this boy I met and married eight years ago.
My conversation with the Mother of My Children (MOMC) was very similar in nature. After a night of reading exmormon.org exit stories I realized I didn't believe. That was that. All those years of making excuses for all the Mormon nonsense went away, and I was left with disbelief. The next morning I sat her down, and told her I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. The news literally caused her to gasp. She then asked me if I still believed in God. I said no.
We were divorcing shortly thereafter much to my unhappiness; not so much because of losing her, but because it would tear my family apart.
The price to pay for evolving one way or another can be steep, but in the end I think it's best to be honest with your spouse and let the cards play out. Anything else is deception, and an attempt to control. I suppose the only acceptable reason to maintain a faithful facade is if you have a sweet job. :D
- VRDRC
Cam, I am so sorry this happened. I hope that you were both able to find happiness, and that you were able to at least treat each other amicably for the children's sake.
When I was going through my trial of faith, I talked with my husband about it. He is very TBM. He said that if I decided to leave the Church, he would accept it, and that he loved me, and even though the transition with me not in Church would be hard, it would not change our marriage, or how he felt about me.
Since we had gone through some other issues, and had worked through them, I did not want to add more stress to the marriage, even knowing how my husband felt. Therefore, I kept going to Church, in spite of my doubts.
This was how I was able to come to terms with my NOMness. There are aspects of the LDS religion that I still in dear, such as the worship of Jesus Christ. I can concentrate on that aspect while personally discounting a lot of the others. A lot of people here have labeled me a hypocrite for doing so, but real life always Trump's Internet alliances. This has something that has worked for me. I don't suggest it for everyone, but am glad I found a solution that worked for our family.
I hope the couple in the article are happy. It sounds like they are, and that they are fulfilled in their marriage. That is the important thing.
“I don’t believe in God,” my husband whispered in the darkness of our bedroom.
My breath caught, and I was afraid to look at him, this boy I met and married eight years ago.
My conversation with the Mother of My Children (MOMC) was very similar in nature. After a night of reading exmormon.org exit stories I realized I didn't believe. That was that. All those years of making excuses for all the Mormon nonsense went away, and I was left with disbelief. The next morning I sat her down, and told her I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. The news literally caused her to gasp. She then asked me if I still believed in God. I said no.
We were divorcing shortly thereafter much to my unhappiness; not so much because of losing her, but because it would tear my family apart.
The price to pay for evolving one way or another can be steep, but in the end I think it's best to be honest with your spouse and let the cards play out. Anything else is deception, and an attempt to control. I suppose the only acceptable reason to maintain a faithful facade is if you have a sweet job. :D
- VRDRC
Sorry that such a thing happened to you. If you disclosed this personal information here before, I didn't see it. I would never have guessed that this happened to you from your posts. You do not seem bitter or resentful at all.
Divorce was never discussed when my wife and I went through this. I took things very slowly (perhaps too slowly) and the "D" word was my greatest concern about the entire long drawn out process. I can't imagine how it must have felt to you at the time.
I hope that you are okay now and that you and your former wife are on good terms.
Oh, and thanks for setting me straight earlier. Much appreciated.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
If only the author and her husband had read the apologetic excuses, she would have been fine with polygamy and the Book of Abraham. The apologists make it all better. I'm sure Ray A could have convinced her that it's OK for a 38 year old married man to marry a 14 year old girl.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
DrW wrote:Sorry that such a thing happened to you. If you disclosed this personal information here before, I didn't see it. I would never have guessed that this happened to you from your posts. You do not seem bitter or resentful at all.
Divorce was never discussed when my wife and I went through this. I took things very slowly (perhaps too slowly) and the "D" word was my greatest concern about the entire long drawn out process. I can't imagine how it must have felt to you at the time.
I hope that you are okay now and that you and your former wife are on good terms.
Oh, and thanks for setting me straight earlier. Much appreciated.
Spanks. Of course there was a lot of acrimony as is typical of child custody issues, etc... But things have worked out well, now and everyone is cooh.
I agree with the sentiment that faith-based organizations ought to focus more on the here and now, marital stability, and acceptance rather than setting a psycho-social stage where the threat of eternal consequence impacts relationship stability. The consequences of families being torn apart over the notion of unknowable suppositions is a tragedy. It's a shame more adults can't overcome the loss or gain of faith. It's equally a shame that same loss or gain of faith comes with so much baggage, to include crazy demands. It is what it is, though.
- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
DarkHelmet wrote:If only the author and her husband had read the apologetic excuses, she would have been fine with polygamy and the Book of Abraham. The apologists make it all better. I'm sure Ray A could have convinced her that it's OK for a 38 year old married man to marry a 14 year old girl.
...when he is already married.
There. Made it even more accurate.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Juggler Vain wrote: It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.
The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs.
You're comparing Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? WOW! Is all I can say.
Have you read Compton's book? You don't need to quote me excerpts, because I have his book right before me now in my hands, chapter 22, page 486, "Polygamy, Melancholy, Possession".
Shall I scan and post it? Would you like to receive it by email? I don't need "excerpts", because I have the whole book right here at my hand.
Let me know what suits you.
Ray,
Please reread my post. I didn't compare Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs. Maren Stephenson, the author of the blog post that you found "very moving" did. Since you've now misread Compton, my post, and Stephenson's blog post, I will directly quote her here so people can read it for themselves (emphasis mine):
Maren Stephenson, in her blog post, wrote:I listened half-heartedly, questioned his sources, though I wasn’t about to go looking at them myself. Our prophets had made it clear that anything written outside church documents was suspect and anti-Mormon, fabricated for the sole purpose of destroying faith. Yet Sean continued, until one night it was about polygamy, my archnemesis.
“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will? Did you know that he’d send men on missions and marry their wives in secret when they were gone?” I sat there silent as he kept talking, a horror growing in my gut. I knew that if Sean was right, then Joseph Smith was a fraud. I saw no difference between his acts and the modern-day acts of Warren Jeffs, whom I abhorred. And if Joseph Smith was a fraud — then what did that make the Church?
See, the way you choose to discuss things we are both reading (and I also have Compton's book in my hands) requires me to quote excerpts, so other people don't believe you when you vaguely accuse me of misunderstanding what was written. The things we are both reading do not support what you are saying, so I don't know why you are saying it, other than really poor reading comprehension skills or armchair apologist-caliber bad faith.
I called up a neighbor with a husband like mine and cried. But instead of empathy, she offered questions that stunned me into silence. Was Sean addicted to pornography? Watching R-rated movies? What sin had brought him to this terrible place?
My tears stopped. Her questions were so off-base that they seemed absurd. She was sincere, and trying to help, but she believed what the Church teaches — that a man would only leave because he’s disobeying the commandments. She couldn’t understand this was a rational inquiry. She saw everything as the result of sin.
This I believe is one of the major factors that cause personal relationships to be damaged. This is what the church has programmed people to believe. That it cannot be the result of rational inquiry, that it all comes from sin, or the need to rationalize sin. This is part of the reason I want to people to be familiar with critical information. To demonstrate to them that doubting the truth claims of the church is reasonable given the available evidence.