Conclusions about the Church and a Thank You to the board...

[_thews]

I believe in Jesus Christ; I honestly don't think it matters where I worship him. It could be a meadow; it could be in a Mormon chapel. As long as I worship him, it doesn't matter.

While I respect your position, I can't imagine attending a church you don't believe in. I understand why you would, to keep peace in the family, but to "worship" in a church where one truly believes is lead by a false prophet of God is a conscious choice, as the witness one presents isn't representative of what they believe, as it represents belief in the false prophet they don't believe in. For reference:

http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [lawlessness].

The whole part of "be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction" is telling, as it instructs one to live the truth they believe in. What would happen if all NOM's took a stand on what they actually believed in? Would it not send a message to those who don't know the truth? Wouldn't it bring the truth to the surface? Would there be a sacrifice to make in standing up for the truth one actually believes in? Would that sacrifice be worth it?

Unlike most on this board Liz, we have something in common, in that we both believe in Jesus Christ. With this belief we've actually thought it all through and came to this logical conclusion, and I don't think either of us are driven by fear of the consequence of choosing incorrectly. Where we differ in locking horns is rooted in validating Joseph Smith and his doctrine as of God, and claiming Mormonism is a Christian faith, which it is not. I adamantly do not believe in any of Joseph Smith's doctrine and am a Christian (though not mainstream as I don't belong to any organized denomination), and my plight in voicing this opinion is based on presenting the truths that are taught to itching ears, as they are kept in the dark with outright lies.

That said, I'm not judging you... do what works for you, just as I do what works for me. What I do know is that right or wrong, when I stand before my maker and am asked why I was who I was, I can honestly say it's because it's what I honestly believed in based on the truth. If you are comfortable in doing the same, or you're not, I still don't believe there's a consequence. In retrospect, given the scenario where we're dead when asked this question, I think we'd all feel we would have dedicated our lives to helping others. We didn't, we lived our lives, and are all flawed, though are also good in many ways. The end result is living with the truths we concluded while we were alive... my opinion.

Just curious, you stated in the OP "conclusions" but didn't state what they were.

I feel like I am finally at a place where I am at peace with how I feel in regards to the Church.

I have been able to establish a way to still be an active member, and participate on my terms. That is, in a large part, due to the support I have received here.

Are you ready to make a stand and let us know what that conclusion is?

[_Shulem]

I'm curious, Liz, dear: How do you feel about the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 found in the official scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do you believe they are inspired truths given by the enlightenment of Joseph Smith restoring Egyptology to the world or do you think it's a bunch of crap?

Speak up, I can't hear ya.

Paul O

[_thews]

:bump:

[_consiglieri]

I'm talking about the other LDS over at MA&DB who were fooled by your wolfs in sheeps clothing, thus falsely condemning my criticism of you. Of course, most later realized who you actually were, and I was vindicated.

I suppose it is easy to recognize I am a wolf in sheep's clothing (never downplay the importance of apostrophes) when I have been banned for almost a year now for asking a simple question and am no longer able to interact with the good people on the MAD Board.

I already expect anti-mormons to be ignorant and falsely belittle me. It's your national past-time.

I am not an anti-Mormon.

I am simply an anti-ldsfags.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_thews]

:bump:

Still waiting for an answer regarding the conclusions Liz came to?

[_moksha]

I suppose it is easy to recognize I am a wolf in sheep's clothing (never downplay the importance of apostrophes) when I have been banned for almost a year now for asking a simple question and am no longer able to interact with the good people on the MAD Board.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Never confuse being a non-conformist with being a cross-dressing wolf. The latter requires a demonstrated knowledge of wool adhesives and the ability to howl out a reasonable bleat.

Of course, the ability to bleat would come in handy on the MDD board.

[_Yoda]

:bump:

Still waiting for an answer regarding the conclusions Liz came to?

I stated my conclusions in my opening statement:

Today, I was thinking about Kish's thread in Telestial about becoming bored with Mormonism.

I started reflecting on my thoughts about the Church, and my own journey through my trial of faith.

I started seriously questioning aspects of Church doctrine around 2003. It was during this time that I learned some disturbing things about Joseph Smith's polyandry, the incident with Fanny Alger, and MMM. It was also during this time period when I learned about how ruthless Brigham Young was as a leader, overall.

This caused me to seriously reevaluate the Church I had grown up in.

Overall, the Church has blessed my life. My family is deeply involved in the Church, my husband, in particular. Since my husband and I had recently reconciled after nearly divorcing (over matters unrelated to religion), I did not want to "rock the boat".

Through all of the little twists and turns, my friends on this board have been here for me, and I want to thank all of you for that.

I feel like I am finally at a place where I am at peace with how I feel in regards to the Church.

I have been able to establish a way to still be an active member, and participate on my terms. That is, in a large part, due to the support I have received here.

My path is not for everyone, and I completely respect those who decide to go a different direction. Everyone has to do what is best for themselves and for their family.

I am comfortable with my choice, and with the opportuniity I have to voice my concerns here.

I have stated many times what I believe and don't believe regarding the Church. You have called me a liar because you refuse to accept that I, or anyone is allowed by some pious standard you have set, to make choices on what they can and can't believe where the LDS gospel is concerned.

It is not an all or nothing choice in my situation. I am sorry that you cannot accept that. You can say that I am wrong, or that I am not suppose to pick and choose, but that is not your call to make.

Here is an outline of what I believe as far as the Church is concerned. There are also some things that I don't know the answers to, and am still working out. These are taken from a series of questions that Ceeboo asked me on my website.

After you read my answers, I would appreciate it if you would simply say that we agree to disagree on this topic and leave it at that. I do not need you continuing to come after me and attack me when I have done no such thing to you. I have defended myself when provoked, but I have never initiated conflict with you. It needs to stop now.

My dear and beloved LDS friends,

As I am sure you know by my OP and my contributions in this thread thus far, it is my opinion that it is impossible to reconcile Mormonism with Christianity. They are two completely and totally different religions (on many levels, in my opinion)



After reading some of the contributions in this thread (I appreciate them ), I was hoping that it would be okay to ask a few questions.

In my mind (small and battered as it may surely be ), the answers to these questions play an enormous role as it relates to the question posed in the OP......."Does Mormonism fit under the umbrells of Christianity"



Do you believe that Joseph Smith is/was a prophet of God? Yes, the LDS Church teaches that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I personally believe that he was a fallen prophet like David. He was inspired to bring about the Book of Mormon, but he lusted after Fanny, and wrongly used a false revleation regarding polygamy to cover his tracks.

Do you believe that God was once a mere man, just like you or I, living on another earth before he became God of our earth? No. I do not believe this, and, although Joseph Smith alluded to it in the King Follet sermon, it is not something widely taught.

Do you believe any/all of the Joseph Smith First Vision accounts? The Church obviously endorses the recorded First Vision account. I believed the recorded version while growing up. I did not learn about the other versions of the First Vision account until a few years ago, and I honestly don't know exactly what to make of it at this point.

Do you believe that the Book of Abraham is an accurarate account of what it is claimed to be? Again, obviously, the Church claims it to be an accurate account. I believe that the Book of Abraham was a further inspired insight of the Old Testament. I don't really have a "dog in that particular fight" as far as the controversy surrounding it.

Do you believe that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God and had been brought to us, through Joseph Smith, using the method of a seer stone and hat? The Church's teaching of this was and is honestly quite confusing. The Church references Joseph translating the Book of Mormon through the Urim and Thumim. The references between the Urim and Thumim and the seer stone were consistently used interchangeably. I thought that the Urim and Thumim and the seer stone were the same thing. I did not learn about the seer stone being a separate entity until much later.

Do you believe that Joseph Smith was commanded by God, with the use of an angel/flaming sword, to practice poygamy and polyandy, or else he would be killed by God?
This is obviously an issue where the Church and I seriously part ways. Yes, the Church does teach this. I do NOT believe that God commanded Joseph to practice polygamy/polyandry. This is where I believe that Joseph fell from grace.
Do you believe that Jesus, like you and I, is just another spirit child of God?
The Church does not teach this, nor do I believe it. Jesus was a full-fledged divine God and created the earth before he ever came to the earth.
Do you believe that Jesus is Divine?YES...I believe that Jesus is divine, and the Church teaches that Jesus is divine.

Do you believe that Jesus is our literal brother? The Church teaches that Jesus is our older brother, in the sense that He was the first born of Heavenly Father. I have no problem with this.

Do you believe that Jesus is the literal brother of satan?Yes, the Church teaches this, in the same sense that they teach the above question. Again, I have no problem with this. However, I can see how other Churches would.

Do you believe that God had "relations" with Mary and is the literal father of Jesus?This is referred to in the JoD, but it is not openly taught as doctrine. No, I don't believe this at all. I think that Brigham Young was off his rocker to suggest that.

Do you believe that our God has a God who has a God, etc, etc? This was never really explained in any sense in the Church. It is left as a mystery. My personal belief is that God has always been...he has always existed.

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

Hi, Ceeboo! I finally got around to answering your questions. They are in blue above.

:flower:

[_BartBurk]

Liz, I understand the reasons why some people doubt that Joseph Smith or any of his successors as presidents of the LDS Church actually were divinely inspired. Frankly I don't blame them for their skepticism. But if one is bound and determined to believe a good God exists and controls the universe (as I in fact am bound and determined), then what exactly is the conscientious alternative to believing in the divine inspiration of the presidents of the LDS Church?

I think Christian Universalism is a good answer to Mormonism. But the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, etc. all believe in good conscience they have the truth.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I don't see why a person can't be a social Mormon as long as they're not a 5th columnist type.

- VRDRC

[_Yoda]

I don't see why a person can't be a social Mormon as long as they're not a 5th columnist type.

- VRDRC

I think that is how Thews views me, Cam.

I admit, I don't see myself that way. I am not attempting to convince anyone of anything. I have stated what has worked for me, and am grateful to those who have helped me get to that place. I have stated many times that my way does not work for everyone, nor would I expect it to.