"don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

[_Alfredo]

I had to laugh when you said God is alien. That is completely obvious since of course any experience with God is alien or outside our normal experiences. People simply don't experience this everyday. And it is clear you haven't thought very carefully along this line since God must be alien. This universe is 13 billion years old. Imagine intelligent life that evolved a few billion years ago. How advanced, transcendent and intelligent would they be compared to us? They would in every definition be God by most accounts. In fact, it is most probable that God exists merely because of that fact.

You really think this flies? You know what I meant by aliens. I mean aliens who are not God, but only pretend to be or don't bother correcting our assumptions. That is, they didn't die for our sins. They aren't the source of morality. They don't organize us by worthiness in the after-life. It's possible, but just as likely as any other sort of alien.

I'm not going to get into it with you Alfredo since your responses are nothing I could ever take seriously, are transparently shallow, and completely bonkers. I'm satisified with the experience, and have faith that God is more intelligent, powerful and capable than the "Devil" theory.

Yep, you can only have faith that the Devil theory isn't true. You can't prove it incorrect. It doesn't matter whether you're satisfied with an inadequate answer.

You don't have faith in the Devil because you took that first step of faith towards God. What stops you from from taking that first step in the other direction?

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

[_Tobin]

I had to laugh when you said God is alien. That is completely obvious since of course any experience with God is alien or outside our normal experiences. People simply don't experience this everyday. And it is clear you haven't thought very carefully along this line since God must be alien. This universe is 13 billion years old. Imagine intelligent life that evolved a few billion years ago. How advanced, transcendent and intelligent would they be compared to us? They would in every definition be God by most accounts. In fact, it is most probable that God exists merely because of that fact.

You really think this flies? You know what I meant by aliens. I mean aliens who are not God, but only pretend to be or don't bother correcting our assumptions. That is, they didn't die for our sins. They aren't the source of morality. They don't organize us by worthiness in the after-life. It's possible, but just as likely as any other sort of alien.

Of course I know what you meant. But there is no reason to suspect what I stated is not true and that all these accounts (and my experience) are simply a manifestation of exactly that I stated. Mormonism (or more exactly a belief in God), is not simply a superstitious, delusional (or whatever attribute you wish to attach to it) belief. There may be very good reasons that people experience these things. Assure us that we too can experience them. And yes - that our civilization (and our very nature) may have been instructed, formed, and influenced by God (or as I like to think this advanced, hyper-intelligent alien presence). Given what we know about the age of our universe, how we are evolving technologically, and so on - it is not hard to believe in such a being nor understand that different people and ages would perceive such beings differently.

[_Alfredo]

Of course I know what you meant. But there is no reason to suspect what I stated is not true and that all these accounts (and my experience) are simply a manifestation of exactly that I stated. Mormonism (or more exactly a belief in God), is not simply a superstitious, delusional (or whatever attribute you wish to attach to it) belief. There may be very good reasons that people experience these things. Assure us that we too can experience them. And yes - that our civilization (and our very nature) may have been instructed, formed, and influenced by God (or as I like to think this advanced, hyper-intelligent alien presence). Given what we know about the age of our universe, how we are evolving technologically, and so on - it is not hard to believe in such a being nor understand that different people and ages would perceive such beings differently.

You failed to address why I raised the example, so it's not apparent that you understood it, at all. I provided my version as an equally valid alternative explanation for your experience to your aliens.

The critical point is that there's no reason to choose one explanation over another because we don't know anything about the sorts of possible things that produce the experience of a personal revelations, except to gamble by circularly appealing to faith in only one sort of explanation.

A point demonstrated by the question you ignored in my last post:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

[_Themis]

Of course I know what you meant. But there is no reason to suspect what I stated is not true and that all these accounts (and my experience) are simply a manifestation of exactly that I stated. Mormonism (or more exactly a belief in God), is not simply a superstitious, delusional (or whatever attribute you wish to attach to it) belief. There may be very good reasons that people experience these things. Assure us that we too can experience them. And yes - that our civilization (and our very nature) may have been instructed, formed, and influenced by God (or as I like to think this advanced, hyper-intelligent alien presence). Given what we know about the age of our universe, how we are evolving technologically, and so on - it is not hard to believe in such a being nor understand that different people and ages would perceive such beings differently.

It's interesting you keep repeating to go ask God, when we have for most of our lives. We even base how on how Joseph did it. God hasn't shown up, and I don't know any members who claim he has either. You state you have been on a mission so I assume you have asked asked God as well. You also indicated he never showed up. I understand you only claim that God or something you thought was God showed up once and only when you were being bad. I can only conclude from your posts that asking God does not work, and you only have a small chance if you are bad. I don't have time for a God like this, and find it very unlikely this God is real. The body is very capable of producing these experiences on their own, so I think that is the more likely.

[_Tobin]

Of course I know what you meant. But there is no reason to suspect what I stated is not true and that all these accounts (and my experience) are simply a manifestation of exactly that I stated. Mormonism (or more exactly a belief in God), is not simply a superstitious, delusional (or whatever attribute you wish to attach to it) belief. There may be very good reasons that people experience these things. Assure us that we too can experience them. And yes - that our civilization (and our very nature) may have been instructed, formed, and influenced by God (or as I like to think this advanced, hyper-intelligent alien presence). Given what we know about the age of our universe, how we are evolving technologically, and so on - it is not hard to believe in such a being nor understand that different people and ages would perceive such beings differently.

You failed to address why I raised the example, so it's not apparent that you understood it, at all. I provided my version as an equally valid alternative explanation for your experience to your aliens.

The critical point is that there's no reason to choose one explanation over another because we don't know anything about the sorts of possible things that produce the experience of a personal revelations, except to gamble by circularly appealing to faith in only one sort of explanation.

A point demonstrated by the question you ignored in my last post:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

And as I've often pointed out, your reasoning is bonkers. You have literally thousands of years of accounts of this occuring and a perfectly reasonable way of understanding those accounts. If you choose to be ignorant and dismissive of history, literature, and past human experience - that is entirely your problem and not something I find interesting.

[_Alfredo]

You failed to address why I raised the example, so it's not apparent that you understood it, at all. I provided my version as an equally valid alternative explanation for your experience to your aliens.

The critical point is that there's no reason to choose one explanation over another because we don't know anything about the sorts of possible things that produce the experience of a personal revelations, except to gamble by circularly appealing to faith in only one sort of explanation.

A point demonstrated by the question you ignored in my last post:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

And as I've often pointed out, your reasoning is bonkers. You have literally thousands of years of accounts of this occuring and a perfectly reasonable way of understanding those accounts. If you choose to be ignorant and dismissive of history, literature, and past human experience - that is entirely your problem and not something I find interesting.

If my reasoning is bonkers then point out exactly where the line of reasoning itself becomes fallacious. I'm not ignoring past experiences of revelation, I'm questioning what explains them.

Again, I'll repeat myself until you give an explicit and direct refutation of my reasoning...

The critical point is that there's no reason to choose one explanation over another because we don't know anything about the sorts of possible things that produce the experience of a personal revelations, except to gamble by circularly appealing to faith in only one sort of explanation.

The question you ignored yet again:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

[_Tobin]

If my reasoning is bonkers then point out exactly where the line of reasoning itself becomes fallacious. I'm not ignoring past experiences of revelation, I'm questioning what explains them.

Again, I'll repeat myself until you give an explicit and direct refutation of my reasoning...

The critical point is that there's no reason to choose one explanation over another because we don't know anything about the sorts of possible things that produce the experience of a personal revelations, except to gamble by circularly appealing to faith in only one sort of explanation.

The question you ignored yet again:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

And I'll continue to ignore your reasoning. It isn't useful and rather pointless. You can assert some malevolent force is in control and accounts for all this. It's a damnable idea literally. It prevents you from learning anything or doing anything useful with yourself. by the way - Damnation isn't so much a punishment from God (or the Devil if you'd like), but what we do to ourselves. It is our lack of imagination, fortitude, and perseverance in faith in God that stops us. You can literally sit on the ground and state there is no God, even when faced with that reality, and it won't matter. You'll either have to accept it and then move on or remain in that state forever. That is the unavoidable truth - no matter how long you persist in denying it.

[_Alfredo]

And I'll continue to ignore your reasoning. It isn't useful and rather pointless. You can assert some malevolent force is in control and accounts for all this. It's a damnable idea literally. It prevents you from learning anything or doing anything useful with yourself.

So, what? You still haven't explained where the line of reasoning fails.

[_Chap]

If my reasoning is bonkers then point out exactly where the line of reasoning itself becomes fallacious. I'm not ignoring past experiences of revelation, I'm questioning what explains them.

Again, I'll repeat myself until you give an explicit and direct refutation of my reasoning...

The critical point is that there's no reason to choose one explanation over another because we don't know anything about the sorts of possible things that produce the experience of a personal revelations, except to gamble by circularly appealing to faith in only one sort of explanation.

The question you ignored yet again:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

And I'll continue to ignore your reasoning. It isn't useful and rather pointless. You can assert some malevolent force is in control and accounts for all this. It's a damnable idea literally. It prevents you from learning anything or doing anything useful with yourself. by the way - Damnation isn't so much a punishment from God (or the Devil if you'd like), but what we do to ourselves. It is our lack of imagination, fortitude, and perseverance in faith in God that stops us. You can literally sit on the ground and state there is no God, even when faced with that reality, and it won't matter. You'll either have to accept it and then move on or remain in that state forever. That is the unavoidable truth - no matter how long you persist in denying it.

Thus spake the Tobin.

With Tobin, all we get nowadays is this dreary and repetitive drone with his 'talk to God' message repeating on an endless loop, with occasional pauses for calling anyone who questions him 'bonkers'.

Frankly, I am almost beginning to prefer Nightlion. He is much less one-track, and at least you get to look at pictures of a rather spectacular mountain.

[_Alfredo]

Thus spake the Tobin.

With Tobin, all we get nowadays is this dreary and repetitive drone with his 'talk to God' message repeating on an endless loop, with occasional pauses for calling anyone who questions him 'bonkers'.

Frankly, I am almost beginning to prefer Nightlion. He is much less one-track, and at least you get to look at pictures of a rather spectacular mountain.

I understand. I'm just trying to sharpen my argument. Just a few more pushes to see if he actually addresses it directly.