"don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

[_Tobin]

And I'll continue to ignore your reasoning. It isn't useful and rather pointless. You can assert some malevolent force is in control and accounts for all this. It's a damnable idea literally. It prevents you from learning anything or doing anything useful with yourself.

So, what? You still haven't explained where the line of reasoning fails.

I don't know how to make it any clearer? Faith (or better word hope) is required. Your assertions are hopeless, pointless, and useless. I have a wealth of experiences and knowledge to draw on. What do I learn by accepting any of your assertions? Not one thing. I can seek more guildance and experience from God. You would refrain because it might be the Devil. You are damned. You will remain damned until you change and you can only change by having faith in God.

[_Alfredo]

I don't know how to make it any clearer? Faith (or better word hope) is required.

You could make it clear by answering the question.

If faith is required...

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

[_Shulem]

Thus spake the Tobin.

With Tobin, all we get nowadays is this dreary and repetitive drone with his 'talk to God' message repeating on an endless loop, with occasional pauses for calling anyone who questions him 'bonkers'.

Frankly, I am almost beginning to prefer Nightlion. He is much less one-track, and at least you get to look at pictures of a rather spectacular mountain.

I tried to warn you that Tobin is brain dead. Turn out the lights for Christ's sake. You won't get anything of value from him.

Paul O

[_Chap]

... You are damned. ....

Priceless.

[_Tobin]

I don't know how to make it any clearer? Faith (or better word hope) is required.

You could make it clear by answering the question.

If faith is required...

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

The question is meaningless. Faith in the Devil is destruction. His only desire is the enslavement and misery of those that follow him. So, basically you can choose - life and joy by having faith in and following God; or death, destruction, and misery by having faith in and following the Devil. I'll choose God. You can choose the Devil if you wish. We'll see how that works out for you.

[_Alfredo]

The question is meaningless. Faith in the Devil is destruction. His only desire is the enslavement and misery of those that follow him. So, basically you can choose - life and joy by having faith in and following God; or death, destruction, and misery by having faith in and following the Devil. I'll choose God. You can choose the Devil if you wish. We'll see how that works out for you.

Ok, I get it. It's not about whether God or Satan is the ruler of the universe, it's which you would prefer to be ruler. Very well, I would also prefer God to be ruler of the universe rather than Satan.

Now that we've both explained what our little hearts desire, we can get back to investigating what is actually true.

So, concerning who is, in fact, the ruler of the universe...

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

[_Nightlion]

The question you ignored yet again:

If you had the choice to put your first act of faith in God or the Devil, how could you choose between them without begging the question?

That so ridiculously easy the deaf, dumb and blind would have no problem at all.

The one that is screwing with you is the Devil
The one that leads you to a greater soul is God.
If you cannot sense which is which congratulation skeptic you are an idiot.

2 Nephi 2
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

Thews? Joseph conned this up when he was what? 22-24 years old. Wow! lol

[_Tobin]

Nightlion,

I wasn't going to respond to him. He is either Themis/thews sock puppet or as you stated. In either event, I thought the question was ludicrous given the number of times I have told him that he is either pretending or really is completely ignorant of what others have stated on this topic in their own written accounts. I gave him one last chance to say anything interesting and he responded with a thunderingly obtuse question. Have fun.

[_Chap]

Nightlion and Tobin: the only people who truly understand the Restored Gospel in these latter days, while the whole of the rest of the Mormon church (in its various versions) is deaf and blind to God's promptings. I see these two as a bit like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

I suppose that despite all their emphasis on the Holy Spirit and personal revelation, the Salt Lake City people, the RLDS, and Warren Jeffs in his cell are just dialing a wrong number and never get to talk with the Big Guy at all. That's why they get so much wrong.

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion and Tobin: the only people who truly understand the Restored Gospel in these latter days, while the whole of the rest of the Mormon church (in its various versions) is deaf and blind to God's promptings. I see these two as a bit like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

I suppose that despite all their emphasis on the Holy Spirit and personal revelation, the Salt Lake City people, the RLDS, and Warren Jeffs in his cell are just dialing a wrong number and never get to talk with the Big Guy at all. That's why they get so much wrong.

Thanks Chap. I cannot speak for Tobin, but for myself reading this was somewhat akin to that scene in The Matrix: Reloaded when Morpheus is fighting the agent on top of the semi trailer and another agent is coming at them head one with his own semi trailer and all Morpheus and the Key Master can do is jump up when the collision begins when suddenly Neo flys in out of nowhere and grabs the both of them to safety. So reading these kind words hit me like that guy back on the monitor watching the falling number and reading the event as it unfolded throwing up his arms in ecstasy, saying, " Yes".