Themis wrote:I am not suggesting it on anything you said directly, but indirectly regarding the catalyst theory. It strongly suggests a lack of knowledge regarding Book of Abraham issues.
Tell that brain dead Tobin-apostate that Joseph Smith has barred him from entering into the celestial kingdom until he confesses that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were given to the world by the gift and power of God and that the Holy Ghost filled the heart and mind of Joseph Smith when that revelation was given.
Unless Tobin submits to the prophet's revelations and confesses that he read Egyptian correctly in the name of Jesus Christ -- he is OUT of the kingdom and will be banished with the unbelievers -- his name forever shall be blotted out and perdition will be his doom.
I think you'll find I understand more than you think. I have been exactly where you are. I was disappointed in the many clearly false teachings in the LDS Church such as knowing the truth through feelings, the cult of leadership, the clearly imperfect character of the Joseph Smith and right on down the line to the current leadership and so on. In fact, I found it so repulsive that I left Mormonism and wanted nothing more to do with it. But, what I didn't understand is that it isn't about other people or their imperfections. None of that disproves there is really a God and once you experience God - that transforms you (evangelicals refer to it as being 'born again'). Your perspective, understanding, and allowance for the weaknesses of others expands.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I think you'll find I understand more than you think. I have been exactly where you are. I was disappointed in the many clearly false teachings in the LDS Church such as knowing the truth through feelings, the cult of leadership, the clearly imperfect character of the Joseph Smith and right on down the line to the current leadership and so on. In fact, I found it so repulsive that I left Mormonism and wanted nothing more to do with it. But, what I didn't understand is that it isn't about other people or their imperfections. None of that disproves there is really a God and once you experience God - that transforms you (evangelicals refer to it as being 'born again'). Your perspective, understanding, and allowance for the weaknesses of others expands.
I don't expect people to be perfect, but why do Evangelicals have a different interpretation of their experience then you do?
Shulem wrote: Tell that brain dead Tobin-apostate that Joseph Smith has barred him from entering into the celestial kingdom until he confesses that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were given to the world by the gift and power of God and that the Holy Ghost filled the heart and mind of Joseph Smith when that revelation was given.
Unless Tobin submits to the prophet's revelations and confesses that he read Egyptian correctly in the name of Jesus Christ -- he is OUT of the kingdom and will be banished with the unbelievers -- his name forever shall be blotted out and perdition will be his doom.
So says, Joseph Smith Jr.
Amen.
Paul O
I do laugh at you always bringing up Facsimile 3. The facsimiles really do destroy both the missing papyri and catalyst theory, but catalysts theory people don't seem to understand why. The missing papyri people just hope people will ignore them.
Tobin wrote:I think you'll find I understand more than you think. I have been exactly where you are. I was disappointed in the many clearly false teachings in the LDS Church such as knowing the truth through feelings, the cult of leadership, the clearly imperfect character of the Joseph Smith and right on down the line to the current leadership and so on. In fact, I found it so repulsive that I left Mormonism and wanted nothing more to do with it. But, what I didn't understand is that it isn't about other people or their imperfections. None of that disproves there is really a God and once you experience God - that transforms you (evangelicals refer to it as being 'born again'). Your perspective, understanding, and allowance for the weaknesses of others expands.
I don't expect people to be perfect, but why do Evangelicals have a different interpretation of their experience then you do?
Because they have a different perspective and background. The same can be said of Muslims and people of other faiths.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Themis wrote:I do laugh at you always bringing up Facsimile 3. The facsimiles really do destroy both the missing papyri and catalyst theory, but catalysts theory people don't seem to understand why. The missing papyri people just hope people will ignore them.
Yes, you're so correct. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 shoot down both the Missing & Catalyst theories with a single shot. The apologists know this and it worries them. I used to be a Book of Abraham apologist and spent countless hours debating the Book of Abraham on the web with all kinds of people. Facsimile No. 3 was the great hurdle and that was one I just couldn't get over. It slew me. It is a thorn in the side of every LDS apologist and one they can't seem to deal with. All they can do is appeal to the authority of John Gee. But the poor guy is wringing his hands while he is huddled in a corner sobbing about how Facsimile No. 3 has truly beaten his ass in front of everyone. Facsimile No. 3 is not going to go away. The whole world will come to know about it -- all in good time. The Mormons have a lot to answer for in fostering their lies and the world will come to know this.
It is always interesting when opponents just declare victory. It is cheap and easy to say I win. I have yet to hear from them how they won, or what was their big argument that won the debate. I'm sure they could fill us in someday once they get done patting themselves on the back.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:It is always interesting when opponents just declare victory. It is cheap and easy to say I win. I have yet to hear from them how they won, or what was their big argument that won the debate. I'm sure they could fill us in someday once they get done patting themselves on the back.
No one was trying to get into details about it, especially since you didn't want to anyways. I know a fair bit, but not as much as Paul who was one of the few apologists trying to defend the Book of Abraham. He brings up the facsimiles because they provide solid evidence that any missing papyri is not going to translate into an Abraham story. This is because the facsimiles do not in any way. It also hurts the catalyst theory since Joseph claims to translate specific parts of the facsimiles including hieroglyphs, although there is other evidence showing he did the same with the hieroglyphs found on the papyri. This is the simple version, and there is more, but why go into it when apologists just run away. There are sites which go into great detail the evidences regarding it. Even you agree with most of it.
Tobin wrote:It is always interesting when opponents just declare victory. It is cheap and easy to say I win. I have yet to hear from them how they won, or what was their big argument that won the debate. I'm sure they could fill us in someday once they get done patting themselves on the back.
No one was trying to get into details about it, especially since you didn't want to anyways. I know a fair bit, but not as much as Paul who was one of the few apologists trying to defend the Book of Abraham. He brings up the facsimiles because they provide solid evidence that any missing papyri is not going to translate into an Abraham story. This is because the facsimiles do not in any way. It also hurts the catalyst theory since Joseph claims to translate specific parts of the facsimiles including hieroglyphs, although there is other evidence showing he did the same with the hieroglyphs found on the papyri. This is the simple version, and there is more, but why go into it when apologists just run away. There are sites which go into great detail the evidences regarding it. Even you agree with most of it.
Yes, I'm well aware of the work people have put into it and it has established exactly what you expect: Joseph Smith knew nothing about Egyptian hierglyphics and any Mormon apologist that jumps on that sinking ship deserves what happens to them. Apologists need to divorce every pronouncement from Joseph Smith (and his many interests and conjectures) from useful doctrine and the gospel. It is a simple fact that without God, Joseph Smith has no ability in this arena and this establishes that with certainty. His speculations about the characters on the papyrus and the facsimiles are obviously silly and ill considered.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Yes, I'm well aware of the work people have put into it and it has established exactly what you expect:
No Tobin it was not what I expected or wanted. It was just reality that Joseph was making it up. God wasn't involved. God would have to be an idiot to give Joseph revelation attaching to specific hieroglyphs over a period of years. The catalyst theory is just for those who cannot accept the fact Joseph was making it up like yourself. People who will not reevaluate their spiritual experiences of feelings, emotions, hallucinations, etc because they are convinced their interpretations must be true. You even admit others do interpret their experiences based on different perspectives and backgrounds.
