Revision to my MDD comments

[_Juggler Vain]

The whole issue of blame for the bad characteristics of the LDS Church and its various organs is a difficult one to resolve, given the assertion that the "LDS Church" is just another name for the LDS people themselves. I, however, don't really buy that assertion. I think it's far more complicated than that.

The "Church" includes people, but it is also made up of ideas and rules that change the way the people think and behave when they are acting within, and on behalf of, the Church. It is also made up of physical resources that people depend on in various ways, and that enable their activities within, and on behalf of, the Church. If you don't adjust your thinking to include these additional factors, it becomes very difficult to make moral judgments about the "Church" without also judging individual people -- harshly -- on the same basis, which might be a mistake. To a certain extent, it seems to me like condemning cells for the behavior of the organism.

This short blog post introduces this way of looking at the Church, its principals, its employees, and its constituent members: A Poor Wayfaring Man.

ETA: Here is a good background post for understanding the PWM Blog post above: To Err is Human.

-JV

[_Drifting]

That is completely unfair. I know many members who support the equal treatment of gays and are not homophobic. I am one of those members. Simply because I pay tithing does NOT change my views, and I resent the implication. I have two extremely dear friends who are gay. The Unitarian reverend, who recently performed the marriage ceremony for my brother and his new wife, is gay. He did a wonderful job, and I sincerely appreciated his service.

I am a performance artist; I sing, direct, act, and teach. The gay community is a huge patron of the arts. The last thing I would EVER be branded is homophobe. All you have to do is speak with my gay friends and colleagues and they will happily confirm what I am saying.

This is a very personal issue for me. You really hit a nerve.

Liz, I apologise for hitting a nerve but I don't think I was being completely unfair. If you have paid your tithing you have, regardless of your personal views, helped to fund activism against gays by the Mormon Church. That may sting a little, but it's undeniable as you have no control over how the Church uses your donation once you've handed it over.

[_zeezrom]

Our EQ Pres used to ask the bishop for an updated list of who doesn't hold a TR.

WHAT??? and he GAVE it to him?

Yes, he did.

I protested during PEC when EQ Pres brought the idea forward and was granted permission.

A well meaning man, this EQ Pres. Unfortunately, he was confused about his position and sense of propriety.

[_Yoda]

Liz, I apologise for hitting a nerve but I don't think I was being completely unfair. If you have paid your tithing you have, regardless of your personal views, helped to fund activism against gays by the Mormon Church. That may sting a little, but it's undeniable as you have no control over how the Church uses your donation once you've handed it over.

Apology accepted.

But yes, you were still being unfair. You stated that if I pay tithing, I am a homophobe. I am clearly not.

As far as paying my tithing is concerned, I pay my tithing, in good faith, to the Church. If the Church chooses to mishandle funds that I contribute in good faith for the Lord's work, then the sin is on the heads of those who misappropriate those funds.

[_Drifting]

Liz, I apologise for hitting a nerve but I don't think I was being completely unfair. If you have paid your tithing you have, regardless of your personal views, helped to fund activism against gays by the Mormon Church. That may sting a little, but it's undeniable as you have no control over how the Church uses your donation once you've handed it over.

Apology accepted.

But yes, you were still being unfair. You stated that if I pay tithing, I am a homophobe. I am clearly not.

As far as paying my tithing is concerned, I pay my tithing, in good faith, to the Church. If the Church chooses to mishandle funds that I contribute in good faith for the Lord's work, then the sin is on the heads of those who misappropriate those funds.

Hi Liz, the Church leaders believe that actively fighting against gay rights IS the Lords work. By the terms of your agreement in paying tithing you are (wether you like it or not) funding the Church's activism against gay people. I know that isn't palatable, and I don't say it to hurt your feelings.

I say it because it is a fact.

The Church put money into fighting gay rights, that money came (in part) from your donations. You can't turn a blind eye to how the Church uses your donations and then claim its all on their heads.

[_zeezrom]

As far as paying my tithing is concerned, I pay my tithing, in good faith, to the Church. If the Church chooses to mishandle funds that I contribute in good faith for the Lord's work, then the sin is on the heads of those who misappropriate those funds.

You are a very forgiving person, Liz. :) Mishandling of my funding is more than I can tolerate.

I now expect someone to say something about taxes.

[_Tobin]

Apology accepted.

But yes, you were still being unfair. You stated that if I pay tithing, I am a homophobe. I am clearly not.

As far as paying my tithing is concerned, I pay my tithing, in good faith, to the Church. If the Church chooses to mishandle funds that I contribute in good faith for the Lord's work, then the sin is on the heads of those who misappropriate those funds.

I understand your reasoning, but I don't think that is good stewardship and holding them to account. I have often told my bishop I would be happy to contribute funds to the Church the moment they decide to as open and honest as any man-made charity.

[_harmony]

You can't turn a blind eye to how the Church uses your donations and then claim its all on their heads.

Ummm... yes, I can and so can she. When the church spends $5 billion on a shopping, they aren't going to care what anyone says about spending a few million on fighting gay rights. Hubris, thy name is The Brethren.

[_Drifting]

You can't turn a blind eye to how the Church uses your donations and then claim its all on their heads.

Ummm... yes, I can and so can she. When the church spends $5 billion on a shopping, they aren't going to care what anyone says about spending a few million on fighting gay rights. Hubris, thy name is The Brethren.

Harmony, without wishing to start a fight, do you not think that's rather unprincipled of you?

What I mean is, if you knew the Church was spending money on encouraging child pornography (hypothetically speaking obviously) would you continue to donate? I think you probably wouldn't.

In which case, what we are saying here (and this is my point) is that activism against gay people is not a big enough deal for you to stop paying tithing. It's a question of where your own personal principles draw the line when it comes to donations you make and how they are used.