Mormonism not Christian...

[_madeleine]

You're the one who asked I go to classic definitions, which are all: Catholic.

You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?

East and west are the "two lungs" of the catholic church. The Orthodox are are in schism. They aren't heretics. They would agree with the same definitions, though, would say it is the west that is in schism. Either way, we are in agreement that there is a schism between us.

The Church of the East is both in schism and heretical (Nestorianism). As far as I know, they agree with the definitions, just don't view that they are heretical.

It's really quite simple for catholics (all churches, east and west), what councils does a particular church accept and which ones are not accepted. Even Protestants accept the Church councils, to a point, accept the writings of the ECF as representing apostolic teachings. etc.

Mormons don't even know what the councils are, purposely remaining ignorant of Christian history.
Though more recently they are fond of applying the same sophistry they have applied to scripture to the ECFs. They just give a blanket view that what they don't know is wrong. Period.

The point being, coming back to the original statement of Mormonism not Christian. There is a vast amount of time, writings, people, traditions, etc. that define Christianity. Schismatics and heretics are still a part of this same whole of Christianity, as they are a part of all that encompasses Christianity.

Mormons have a desire to change all of this, wipe it out would be their ideal (50000 missionaries removing people from Christianity). They want it both ways, to be called Christian while at the same time, rejecting EVERYTHING that has and does define Christianity for 2000 years. It's doctrines, theology, Saints....EVERYTHING.

They have built a new religion that has never existed before.

[_madeleine]

Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.

Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?

St. Augustine of Hippo was a convert from Manichaeism, a gnostic religion. When he converted to Christianity he was baptized.

[_lulu]

You're the one who asked I go to classic definitions, which are all: Catholic.

You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?

East and west are the "two lungs" of the catholic church. The Orthodox are are in schism. They aren't heretics. They would agree with the same definitions, though, would say it is the west that is in schism. Either way, we are in agreement that there is a schism between us.

The Church of the East is both in schism and heretical (Nestorianism). As far as I know, they agree with the definitions, just don't view that they are heretical.

It's really quite simple for catholics (all churches, east and west), what councils does a particular church accept and which ones are not accepted. Even Protestants accept the Church councils, to a point, accept the writings of the ECF as representing apostolic teachings. etc.

Mormons don't even know what the councils are, purposely remaining ignorant of Christian history.
Though more recently they are fond of applying the same sophistry they have applied to scripture to the ECFs. They just give a blanket view that what they don't know is wrong. Period.

The point being, coming back to the original statement of Mormonism not Christian. There is a vast amount of time, writings, people, traditions, etc. that define Christianity. Schismatics and heretics are still a part of this same whole of Christianity, as they are a part of all that encompasses Christianity.

Mormons have a desire to change all of this, wipe it out would be their ideal (50000 missionaries removing people from Christianity). They want it both ways, to be called Christian while at the same time, rejecting EVERYTHING that has and does define Christianity for 2000 years. It's doctrines, theology, Saints....EVERYTHING.

They have built a new religion that has never existed before.

None of which was the issue. We are not discussing Catholic terms, as you claim, we are discussing Christian terms.

Agreed?

[Guest]

Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.

Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?

St. Augustine of Hippo was a convert from Manichaeism, a gnostic religion. When he converted to Christianity he was baptized.

Again, you duck the issue. Yes, heretics had to be "re"-baptized. Ask St. Basil (he was Greek speaking Orthodox ).

But no one ever claimed that heretics were not Christian. The only references I've ever found say that heretics were Christians, not pagans or heathens even though they had to be "re"-baptized.

Baptism was required of both heretics and pagans. But that requirement was never used to claim that heretics were pagans.

So once again, if you claim that Gnostics were not Christians, please enlighten me with a direct reference. That is the direct question, which you're ducked.

[_madeleine]

Who defined them and when?

If you think gnostics were Christians, how did a gnostic define these terms?

[_lulu]

Who defined them and when?

If you think gnostics were Christians, how did a gnostic define these terms?

Once again, you duck the question. The question is: did classic Christianity define Gnostics and other heretics as Christian? Please provide a reference.

[_madeleine]

Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.

Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?

St. Augustine of Hippo was a convert from Manichaeism, a gnostic religion. When he converted to Christianity he was baptized.

Again, you duck the issue. Yes, heretics had to be "re"-baptized. Ask St. Basil (he was Greek speaking Orthodox ).

But no one ever claimed that heretics were not Christian. The only references I've ever found say that heretics were Christians, not pagans or heathens even though they had to be "re"-baptized.

Baptism was required of both heretics and pagans. But that requirement was never used to claim that heretics were pagans.

Baptism is how one becomes a Christian.

So once again, if you claim that Gnostics were not Christians, please enlighten me with a direct reference. That is the direct question, which you're ducked.

Baptism is how one becomes a Christian. People who had already been baptized as Christians, were not rebaptized. Baptized Christians who follow heresies are not rebaptized if/when they return to Christianity. (Donatist heresy brought clarity to that one.)

Gnostics baptized, a convert from gnosticism was baptized. If they were considered Christians they would not be baptized.

As for ducking questions....l apologize for making the assumption that you understood the significance of a Christian baptism.

edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

[_lulu]

edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move

[_MCB]

edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move

Funny comparison, but not close enough.

Basil never claimed to be a prophet, and no-one ever called him a prophet.

[_Yoda]

edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move

OMG! Love it!!!