The Peterson/Schryver Inquisition

[Guest]

Please tell me that someone here created a sock puppet and posted this nugget:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58006-…-he-did-go-about-secretly-…-seeking-to-destroy-the-church-…/page__st__320#entry1209130413

I can't imagine this is legit but if so, I don't know what to say. John Dehlin is a murderer.....

[_Joe Geisner]

The real perversion of the gospel is looking at the life of Christ and believing that the mission of going out after the one includes the unwritten addendum to bring him back and roast him on a spit.

This is beautiful and quite powerful.

When people suggest that the institutional Church is good, I think of the excommunication of Lavina Fielding Anderson and Janice Allred. These two people are the most Christ like people I know, and yet they were thrown away.

People like Dano and Lou get to sit back and heckle without fear. This is wrong.

[_Kishkumen]

This is beautiful and quite powerful.

When people suggest that the institutional Church is good, I think of the excommunication of Lavina Fielding Anderson and Janice Allred. These two people are the most Christ like people I know, and yet they were thrown away.

People like Dano and Lou get to sit back and heckle without fear. This is wrong.

Amen.

[Guest]

The real perversion of the gospel is looking at the life of Christ and believing that the mission of going out after the one includes the unwritten addendum to bring him back and roast him on a spit.

This is beautiful and quite powerful.

When people suggest that the institutional Church is good, I think of the excommunication of Lavina Fielding Anderson and Janice Allred. These two people are the most Christ like people I know, and yet they were thrown away.

People like Dano and Lou get to sit back and heckle without fear. This is wrong.

Hi Joe,

I completely agree with you that Anderson and Allred are wonderful people and while I find Allred's scriptural exegesis to be seriously flawed I do find her work interesting.

I don't know as much about the Anderson excommunication so I can't really comment but I know a bit about Allred's. The fact is that Allred was openly and vigorously promoting the practice of praying (and possibly worshiping) Mother in Heaven. I'm not saying that idea is bad or good .... different strokes and all that. However, this teaching was at complete odds with the LDS Church's official doctrine.

I'll use hyperbole but what if I were Catholic and started encouraging other Catholics to begin worshipping at a statue of Mohammed? I could be the nicest guy in the world but my exhortations aren't going to fly.

When I was working for the NYSE and had started openly and publically stating that NASDAQ was the place to list new IPOs I would have been fired. When you are willfully a member of an organization I believe it is important for individuals have respect for that organization's official position.

I'm NOT saying that Church members should not explore and discuss theological questions and raise concerns to Church leaders. I think the Church would benefit from a little more open discussion.

I like Armand Mauss' take on it. He stated something to the effect that if a family member does something you stronly disagree with you don't go running to the newspapers. You keep it in the family and work it out. Plus, in the case of the Church we know that going to the press only causes policies to become MORE entrenched -- at least in the short term. If you take a close look at Spencer Kimball's apostolic career it becomes evident that he was moved, inspired, and influenced by members who expressed concern about the priesthood ban. I think he had in mind to change the policy as early as 1969 and it is telling that Stake Presidents and Bishops in Brazil were told months, if not years before OD-2. Kimball had to lobby the 12.

So I do understand the Church's actions but I disagree with how the entire affair was handled. The Church botched that one. At the same time, Allred knew what she was doing and if she says she didn't see it coming I would be surprised. She watched Sonia Johnson.

I'm not disparaging creative and exploratory theology (speculative theology I could do without) and I think the Church would benefit from deeper theological reflection. But there are certain ways to express new ideas within the Church and Allred did it all wrong.

I have a pending publication (in a Catholic legal journal) that looks at the whole concept of eternal progression and offers up an interpretation that differs from the official Church line. The paper has been floating around since 2010 as I've been getting feedback and critique from colleagues and friends. I don't anticipate any trouble with the Church.

Also take a look at Taylor Petrey's Dialogue article from last year. He offers a heterodox interpretation of sexuality and its place in the Church. He's still active as can be (and a great guy to boot by the way...).

Whenever you are part of an organization It is important to understand the cultural place of disagreement. In our current top-heavy corporate structure where so much emphasis is placed on "following the prophet" it is important to express ideas in such a way as to not undermine the Church's authority -- that is, of course, if you wan't to remain a Church member.

Enough rambling.....

ETA - not really edited to add but rather change "constructive theology" to "speculative theology" which is what I really meant.

[_Joe Geisner]

...

I don't know as much about the Anderson excommunication so I can't really comment but I know a bit about Allred's. The fact is that Allred was openly and vigorously promoting the practice of praying (and possibly worshiping) Mother in Heaven. I'm not saying that idea is bad or good .... different strokes and all that. However, this teaching was at complete odds with the LDS Church's official doctrine.

....

Enough rambling.....

Seth,

Thanks you for your comments.

I could be wrong, since I never attended Janice's ward, but I would be quite surprised if she ever advocated these things at Church meetings. Everything I have read was clear that she as ex'ed over her writings and speaking outside of Church (Sunstone and Women's Forum).

Everything I have read about all the feminist and intellectual purging was similar. None of the people I talked with and none of the correspondence ever suggested their teaching that upset Packer where in a Church.

[_Bond James Bond]

Someone might tell these Mormons that Nephite society is no more real than Numenorian society.

Wait! Bond! You mean the Numenorian society is fictional! Damn! My whole world is falling apart. The Nephites and now this.

It was real until it sank into the sea. But a shadow lives on in Minas Tirith.

[_sethpayne]

...

I don't know as much about the Anderson excommunication so I can't really comment but I know a bit about Allred's. The fact is that Allred was openly and vigorously promoting the practice of praying (and possibly worshiping) Mother in Heaven. I'm not saying that idea is bad or good .... different strokes and all that. However, this teaching was at complete odds with the LDS Church's official doctrine.

....

Enough rambling.....

Seth,

Thanks you for your comments.

I could be wrong, since I never attended Janice's ward, but I would be quite surprised if she ever advocated these things at Church meetings. Everything I have read was clear that she as ex'ed over her writings and speaking outside of Church (Sunstone and Women's Forum).

Everything I have read about all the feminist and intellectual purging was similar. None of the people I talked with and none of the correspondence ever suggested their teaching that upset Packer where in a Church.

Joe,

I think you are correct that Allred did NOT espouse her ideas at official Church meetings. In fact, I'm pretty sure she didn't.

I think Allred has two major problems. I'd be interested to see if you agree (I'm assuming you have read God the Mother).

First, Allred treats scriptural texts as if they have a unified single voice. That is, she takes the word "spirit" from Nephi and applies it to later sections in the D&C. Now, if you believe in Book of Mormon historicity this is obviously a huge blunder. You can't take Nephi's words and apply their interpretation to a text generated by another author 2600 years later. I should point out that this is how Allred presents here thesis. She fully accepts Book of Mormon historicty and D&C revelations. Now, even if you don't believe in Book of Mormon historicty and attribute it to Joseph Smith you have a similar problem. Joseph's theology evolved to a point where it almost undermined the Book of Mormon (teachings on God, existence of hell, etc..). Therefore, you can't assume that Smith's use of the word in 1st Nephi has any relevance to its usage in D&C revelations.

Second, Allred's work is far to devotional. If you want to present a theological case then write as a scholar. If you want to write a devotional piece, then write a devotional piece. By mixing the two I think Allred created a lot of confusion about her own beliefs as opposed to speculations that she may or may not accept.

Seth

[_Joe Geisner]

Joe,

I think you are correct that Allred did NOT espouse her ideas at official Church meetings. In fact, I'm pretty sure she didn't.

I think Allred has two major problems. I'd be interested to see if you agree (I'm assuming you have read God the Mother).

...

Seth

Seth,

I have not read God the Mother. I have read many of her articles and quite a bit of the Toscano's writings. The three seem to be quite similar.

But I will say that your critique of Janice's writings is right on target. I have major problems with what I call "creative theology" and I find their writings fall in this category.

As I said on the other thread, B.H. Roberts is my hero. I love his theology books and in my opinion his books are still the best of Mormon Theology.

Now that I have written this, I realize that this is completely off topic and I apologize to Simon for this. Sorry.

[_sethpayne]

Joe,

I think you are correct that Allred did NOT espouse her ideas at official Church meetings. In fact, I'm pretty sure she didn't.

I think Allred has two major problems. I'd be interested to see if you agree (I'm assuming you have read God the Mother).

...

Seth

Seth,

I have not read God the Mother. I have read many of her articles and quite a bit of the Toscano's writings. The three seem to be quite similar.

But I will say that your critique of Janice's writings is right on target. I have major problems with what I call "creative theology" and I find their writings fall in this category.

As I said on the other thread, B.H. Roberts is my hero. I love his theology books and in my opinion his books are still the best of Mormon Theology.

Now that I have written this, I realize that this is completely off topic and I apologize to Simon for this. Sorry.

Well, I don't know if it is completely off topic as it does relate to how the Church ferrets out the wolves!

by the way -- I notice that the mods deleted the post that called John Dehlin a murderer. I'm usually not one for deleting posts but I think this was a good call.

[_Joe Geisner]

by the way -- I notice that the mods deleted the post that called John Dehlin a murderer. I'm usually not one for deleting posts but I think this was a good call.

Seth,

One of the items leaked about Gregory's article on John was the two missionaries who drowned in a lake(?) and Gregory some how decided that John has power over earth and sea and was responsible for the deaths.

Is this what the poster was writing about?