A thunderingly obtuse question...

[_Alfredo]

What you don't realize is it isn't faith, it is how intelligent we choose to be given the circumstance we find ourselves in.

God first formed us and made all we are possible and all he asks is we follow him. It is our choice to either follow him, or ignore him and diminish ourselves in the process.

So it isn't faith that is really required, it is the realization that following God is in our best interest.

So, it's possible to realize that following God is in our best interest without faith...

How do you confirm that "God first formed us and made all we are possible and all he asks is we follow him. It is our choice to either follow him, or ignore him and diminish ourselves in the process." without faith?

I'm also very interested to know what you think faith is useful for, at all?

[_Alfredo]

I think you're missing that faith is actual substance and evidence. It's not a pure knowledge because it's in things that are unseen. This is a common Christian description of faith found in Hebrews. So with the "first" act of faith, there is always a basis. Maybe it truly is the first thing you've come into contact with, maybe it's something that attracts or pulls you.

I don't see how this changes the question.

This is where Mormonism comes in because we now know that there is an opposition in all things that MUST be there or there is no purpose in life. So one WILL be enticed towards God or the Devil and the Lord has given us sufficient to be attracted to God. Light of Christ etc. Spiritual gifts. Weaknesses. Etc.

Does it require faith to believe this?

[_Tobin]

So, it's possible to realize that following God is in our best interest without faith...

How do you confirm that "God first formed us and made all we are possible and all he asks is we follow him. It is our choice to either follow him, or ignore him and diminish ourselves in the process." without faith?

I'm also very interested to know what you think faith is useful for, at all?

Faith is a given. You are going to put your trust and "faith" in something. Otherwise, it would simply be impossible to exist. The question is, what do you have faith in and do you have good reasons for doing so? If it so happened that your faith was in a belief that you just spontaneously popped into existance one day into your current life, memories, and so on - it would not be possible for me to dissuade you from this belief. For example, I could not prove to you that you were conceived, birthed by a mother, and so on.

So, again, it comes back to a question of why do you put faith into the beliefs you do hold as true and do you have good reasons for it? Certainly, if God does not appear to us, does not speak to us, and in no way interacts with us - I would argue having faith in such a non-existent entity would not be based on good reasons. However, if God can speak with us, we can see him, and speak with him. Is faith in such a being unreasonable? If what he reveals about ourselves and how to conduct ourselves with others and in general is helpful and fulfilling, would it not be unreasonable to do as he asks? That is why I'm saying fath is not the question, but the realization that following what God is in our best interests - precisely because it is reasonable, rewarding and as I said - in our best interest.

[_Alfredo]

So, again, it comes back to a question of why do you put faith into the beliefs you do hold as true and do you have good reasons for it? Certainly, if God does not appear to us, does not speak to us, and in no way interacts with us - I would argue having faith in such a non-existent entity would not be based on good reasons. However, if God can speak with us, we can see him, and speak with him. Is faith in such a being unreasonable? If what he reveals about ourselves and how to conduct ourselves with others and in general is helpful and fulfilling, would it not be unreasonable to do as he asks? That is why I'm saying fath is not the question, but the realization that following what God is in our best interests - precisely because it is reasonable, rewarding and as I said - in our best interest.

So, do you mean to say that belief in God is entirely pragmatic, in your view? That is, what caused the experience of personal revelation doesn't matter...?

[_Tobin]

So, do you mean to say that belief in God is entirely pragmatic, in your view? That is, what caused the experience of personal revelation doesn't matter...?

In my experience, yes. Faith is merely a manifestation of trust and willingness to believe/do as another (God in this case) asks. To establish that faith (or trust) takes experience over time and you are willing to do so because you believe it is in your best interest to do so.

[_Alfredo]

So, do you mean to say that belief in God is entirely pragmatic, in your view? That is, what caused the experience of personal revelation doesn't matter...?

In my experience, yes. Faith is merely a manifestation of trust and willingness to believe/do as another (God in this case) asks. To establish that faith (or trust) takes experience over time and you are willing to do so because you believe it is in your best interest to do so.

Not what I asked.

[_Tobin]

Not what I asked.

What part of Yes didn't you understand - the 'y', the 'e', or the 's'? Maybe it was a poor assumption on my part to assume you understood English.

[_Alfredo]

Not what I asked.

What part of Yes didn't you understand - the 'y', the 'e', or the 's'? Maybe it was a poor assumption on my part to assume you understood English.

Cute jab. The questions were about belief in god, not your version of faith, and whether what caused a personal revelation experience matters.

So, it's "y-e-s" to both questions, immediately followed by irrelevant preaching...

Just want to be clear about your specific response to each question.

[_keithb]

Alfredo,

Let me rephrase the question as one that is related to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly.

Say that Bob is born an atheist and (for whatever reason) decided to join a religion. Bob has two choices for religions that he would like to join: Church Alfredo and Church Bertha.Under Bob's model of God and the universe, there are only two characters acting in the supernatural realm. On the one hand, you have God -- a benevolent being who is out to save humanity from itself and only tells the truth. On the other hand, you have the devil -- the father of lies who want to damn all humanity. Being the father of all lies, his mission in life is to lie to humanity to lead them away from God.

Further, Bob believe prayer to be an effective method of communicating with said God. So, Bob prays to God about Alfredo and Bertha. However, there is a problem. When Bob prays about both churches, he feels that church Alfredo is the true church. However, he is unsure how to interpret his answer. On the one hand, it could be God telling him that church Alfredo is the correct church. On the other hand, it could be the devil posing as God and telling him that church Alfredo is the correct choice.

So, the question boils down to this: how is Bob supposed to tell the difference between the possibilities for the answer that he has received? Is he actually hearing the voice of God, or is this a trick from the devil designed to destroy him?

Keep in mind that he can't go to the members of church Alfredo or church Bertha for answers. Both churches have members who are rabidly in favor of their personal religion, and they aren't shy about claiming that the members of the opposing church have been tricked by Satan.

So, which church does Bob join and why? Also, isn't any choice that Bob makes essentially arbitrary and an example of Bob putting his faith in one side or the other without the ability to be certain that he's listening to God and not the devil?

Something like this, Alfredo?

[_Alfredo]

Alfredo,

Let me rephrase the question as one that is related to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly.

Say that Bob is born an atheist and (for whatever reason) decided to join a religion. Bob has two choices for religions that he would like to join: Church Alfredo and Church Bertha.Under Bob's model of God and the universe, there are only two characters acting in the supernatural realm. On the one hand, you have God -- a benevolent being who is out to save humanity from itself and only tells the truth. On the other hand, you have the devil -- the father of lies who want to damn all humanity. Being the father of all lies, his mission in life is to lie to humanity to lead them away from God.

Further, Bob believe prayer to be an effective method of communicating with said God. So, Bob prays to God about Alfredo and Bertha. However, there is a problem. When Bob prays about both churches, he feels that church Alfredo is the true church. However, he is unsure how to interpret his answer. On the one hand, it could be God telling him that church Alfredo is the correct church. On the other hand, it could be the devil posing as God and telling him that church Alfredo is the correct choice.

So, the question boils down to this: how is Bob supposed to tell the difference between the possibilities for the answer that he has received? Is he actually hearing the voice of God, or is this a trick from the devil designed to destroy him?

Keep in mind that he can't go to the members of church Alfredo or church Bertha for answers. Both churches have members who are rabidly in favor of their personal religion, and they aren't shy about claiming that the members of the opposing church have been tricked by Satan.

So, which church does Bob join and why? Also, isn't any choice that Bob makes essentially arbitrary and an example of Bob putting his faith in one side or the other without the ability to be certain that he's listening to God and not the devil?

Something like this, Alfredo?

Yep. Something like that.