Shocked by Polygamy

[_Themis]

I don't think any true LDS believes that Joseph had sex with the so termed "spiritual marriages."

Based on this and other post's it becomes obvious that to be a true LDS you have to believe whatever gdemetz believes, but then one wouldn't be a true LDS, but a true gdemetz

The one case of the death bed statement, I believe, referred to the daughter being sealed to Joseph rather than being his biological daughter. The sealing of the wife's children also occurred along with the sealing of the wife.

I wonder why a women gdemetz thinks was only a sealing for the next life would only tell one child who could be the biological child of Joseph and not the others, and why she waited until the end to do it. A sealing for this life only would be an easy sell to others including Emma and this women would probably have told all her children long before her deathbed. Especially after BY went public about polygamy. I guess it didn't stop BY from having sex with Zina who already had a another husband. I winder why some member are ok with BY doing it but not Joseph.

[_Tobin]

I wonder why a women gdemetz thinks was only a sealing for the next life would only tell one child who could be the biological child of Joseph and not the others, and why she waited until the end to do it. A sealing for this life only would be an easy sell to others including Emma and this women would probably have told all her children long before her deathbed. Especially after BY went public about polygamy. I guess it didn't stop BY from having sex with Zina who already had a another husband. I winder why some member are ok with BY doing it but not Joseph.

Because all the other Lyon children (the ones she considered sealed to Joseph Smith) were maybe, mmmm - wait for it - DEAD!!!! at the time.
Diana Lyon - Died in child birth (no record)
Marion Lyon - Died March 19, 1842 in Nauvoo, IL, USA
Philofreen Lyon - Died January 2, 1844 in Nauvoo, IL, USA
Asa Windsor Lyon - Died December 25, 1842 in Nauvoo, IL, USA
Josephine Rosetta Lyon - alive at the time
Byron Windsor Lyon - Died December 13, 1851 Iowa City, Johnson, Iowa, USA
David Carlos Lyon - Died April 21, 1850 Iowa City, Johnson, Iowa, USA
Charles William Lyon - Died in child birth (no record)
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/v/a/n/Craig--Van-mourik/FAMO1-0001/d1565.html
gdemetz, it is pointless to argue with Themis. He doesn't know what he's talking about usually.

[_Chap]

Yes Liz, the FLDS no doubt believe that also, but the LDS also support that view. I don't think any true LDS believes that Joseph had sex with the so termed "spiritual marriages." The one case of the death bed statement, I believe, referred to the daughter being sealed to Joseph rather than being his biological daughter. The sealing of the wife's children also occurred along with the sealing of the wife.

Why would a sealing be such a big secret that the mother postponed telling the daughter until her deathbed?

Now actual biological parenthood might have been a different matter.

It certainly seems beyond dispute that Joseph Smith had sex with women other than Emma. Indeed, when it had to fight the Temple Lot case in the 1890s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints went to great lengths to obtain affidavits from a number of women stating that they had sex with Joseph Smith - see the first three examples here:

- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

In total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

I don't see what the fuss is about. Why are some people so anxious about the possibility that Joseph Smith liked having sex, and had it where he could? Isn't the idea that God told him this was OK? Some apologists seem to be suffering from a big dose of presentism, by applying the standards of the post-polygamy LDS church to its founder.

[_Themis]

I wonder why a women gdemetz thinks was only a sealing for the next life would only tell one child who could be the biological child of Joseph and not the others, and why she waited until the end to do it. A sealing for this life only would be an easy sell to others including Emma and this women would probably have told all her children long before her deathbed. Especially after BY went public about polygamy. I guess it didn't stop BY from having sex with Zina who already had a another husband. I winder why some member are ok with BY doing it but not Joseph.

Because all the other Lyon children (the ones she considered sealed to Joseph Smith) were maybe, mmmm - wait for it - DEAD!!!! at the time.
Diana Lyon - Died in child birth (no record)
Marion Lyon - Died March 19, 1842 in Nauvoo, IL, USA
Philofreen Lyon - Died January 2, 1844 in Nauvoo, IL, USA
Asa Windsor Lyon - Died December 25, 1842 in Nauvoo, IL, USA
Josephine Rosetta Lyon - alive at the time
Byron Windsor Lyon - Died December 13, 1851 Iowa City, Johnson, Iowa, USA
David Carlos Lyon - Died April 21, 1850 Iowa City, Johnson, Iowa, USA
Charles William Lyon - Died in child birth (no record)
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/v/a/n/Craig--Van-mourik/FAMO1-0001/d1565.html
gdemetz, it is pointless to argue with Themis. He doesn't know what he's talking about usually.

I noticed you had to limit it to her first husband as though she would only considered them sealed to Joseph. Nice try at deception even if it failed.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=52088492

[_Tobin]

I noticed you had to limit it to her first husband as though she would only considered them sealed to Joseph. Nice try at deception even if it failed.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=52088492

There was no deception in anything I stated. Sylvia married a non-Mormon Ezekial Clark and she had 3 children that survived. I don't know how she viewed those children since they were born out of the convenant. You clearly don't have a good grasp on the facts or anything else for that matter.

[_Themis]

I noticed you had to limit it to her first husband as though she would only considered them sealed to Joseph. Nice try at deception even if it failed.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=52088492

There was no deception in anything I stated. Sylvia married a non-Mormon Ezekial Clark and she had 3 children that survived. I don't know how she viewed those children since they were born out of the convenant. You clearly don't have a good grasp on the facts or anything else for that matter.

Because all the other Lyon children (the ones she considered sealed to Joseph Smith) were maybe, mmmm - wait for it - DEAD!!!! at the time.

Empasis mine

Try again. You clearly tried to imply she only considered children from her first husband were sealed to Joseph. Your back tracking now because you know you were asserting something you don't know.

[_Tobin]

Because all the other Lyon children (the ones she considered sealed to Joseph Smith) were maybe, mmmm - wait for it - DEAD!!!! at the time.

Empasis mine
Try again. You clearly tried to imply she only considered children from her first husband were sealed to Joseph. Your back tracking now because you know you were asserting something you don't know.

I know you've been out of Mormonism for a while Themis, but children born out of the convenant aren't necessarily sealed to you. Just a FYI because you seem to have forgotten some stuff (I know it is hard losing the spirit and all that - I'll try to bear in mind you are handicapped).

[_Themis]

I know you've been out of Mormonism for a while Themis, but children born out of the convenant aren't necessarily sealed to you. Just a FYI because you seem to have forgotten some stuff (I know it is hard losing the spirit and all that - I'll try to bear in mind you are handicapped).

Stop embarrassing yourself. You tried and failed, and now you want to distract by going after the one who schooled you. Can you even show she was sealed to her first husband. BY considered Zina's children to be Joseph's including the ones he may have fathered. So again it makes no sense for Sylvia to only considered one child Joseph's unless she is referring to being the biological father. This is the reasonable conclusion unless you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise.

[_Tobin]

I know you've been out of Mormonism for a while Themis, but children born out of the convenant aren't necessarily sealed to you. Just a FYI because you seem to have forgotten some stuff (I know it is hard losing the spirit and all that - I'll try to bear in mind you are handicapped).

Stop embarrassing yourself. You tried and failed, and now you want to distract by going after the one who schooled you. Can you even show she was sealed to her first husband. BY considered Zina's children to be Joseph's including the ones he may have fathered. So again it makes no sense for Sylvia to only considered one child Joseph's unless she is referring to being the biological father. This is the reasonable conclusion unless you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise.

Schooled by you? Not unless you are teaching clown lessons.

You are taking one ambiguous statement - something she said as she was dying - and creating your special theory out of it when there are clearly other reasons she would make that statement. Also, she had a rocky relationship with Ezekiel Clark and left him, so there were a lot of difficulties at play with that part of her family. And I'll say it again, we don't know what she thought of the status of the remaining children. Maybe she did consider them sealed to the prophet as well? Let's ask them. In fact, let's clear up this whole ambiguous statement and ask Sylvia what she meant. Oh no, she's dead and so are they.

[_Themis]

Schooled by you? Not unless you are teaching clown lessons.

You are taking one ambiguous statement - something she said as she was dying - and creating your special theory out of it when there are clearly other reasons she would make that statement. Also, she had a rocky relationship with Ezekiel Clark and left him, so there were a lot of difficulties at play with that part of her family. And I'll say it again, we don't know what she thought of the status of the remaining children. Maybe she did consider them sealed to the prophet as well? Let's ask them. In fact, let's clear up this whole ambiguous statement and ask Sylvia what she meant. Oh no, she's dead and so are they.

You got caught. You are also the one making assertions about what she meant that are not the most reasonable, so you need to provide evidence to make your assertions more likely. The problem is you don't have anything as has been evident when this issue has come up. We have provided some other evidence like Zina, and Sylvia having other children and didn't call them to her bed. I believe at least one other child(a daughter) was living in Utah at the time. So now your assertion is even less likely and not reasonable. It is based on what you want to believe about Joseph and that is it. I am not saying I am right in any absolute way, but it is the reasonable interpretation and not the unreasonable one that is not very likely, but you are free to believe what ever you want.