Straw God

[_KevinSim]

Okay, okay. Here's my idea. Some people don't like bacon, so I propose an alternative to bacon. Are you with me? See, what we do is take some pork bellies. Then we cut those pork bellies into strips and cure them. And possibly smoke them, too. Then maybe we could fry it in a pan for breakfast. I think that these cured and smoked strips of pork bellies would overcome people's objections to bacon.

Darth J, my reaction exactly! Well said.

[_Yoda]

...people's objections to bacon.

I've been a devotee of Darth J for more than two years now. But he and I are now on divergent paths. He thinks there are people with objections to bacon? What next, he'll suggest there are people with objections to sex?

Bacon and sex...two favorite morning pastimes.

[_Tobin]

I question the concept of a limited God merely because it begs the question of just how limited is a limited God? The other problem I have with it is the concept of free agency. If God is unable to do anything he imagines, then free agency is a fiction since no-one, including God, can decide between all possible choices.

Tobin, could you explain this? Why is it that a limited God, or anyone else for that matter, can't "decide between all possible choices"?

Because all possible choices or options aren't available to God (or whoever else you may consider). Imposing limitations means you limit choice, that implies you aren't a free agent able to choose among all possible alternatives.

I'd propose an alternative to the limited God and the all-powerful/all knowing God that is responsible for everything including evil. That would be an highly technologically advanced, evolved and eternal being of immense knowledge and power that makes no mistakes, is dedicated to truth and doing what is best, and knows all that has happened, and based on that can see and predict all matters (vs the minutia) of consequence that does and will happen. In essense a timeless being that for all intentional purposes is all knowing and all powerful in any way that really matters, but devoid of the questions of limitations that a limited God might engender.

What exactly is the difference between this "highly technologically advanced, evolved and eternal being" and the God I postulated?

In my view, I'm not imposing limitations on the traditional view of God. God's limitations arise as a consequence of his natural existence (how he came to be). Or in other words, because he is a "highly technologically advanced, evolved and eternal being" arising some billions of years ago on a different planet than ours, there are things that would be of interest to God and things that would not. Imagine we were hyper advanced monitoring the development on another world. Unless we didn't understand the biological processes of the species we were monitoring, it is highly unlikely we would monitor ever single instance they deficated. The same would be true for minor actions of individuals. We would be more interested in how they develop and might attempt to guide that alien world and mold it in productive and successful ways.

This is unsurprisingly similar to accounts of God in our own records. We see a God that intercedes in human affairs from time to time, dispensing advice (and in some instances technological know-how) to us.

Joseph Smith also points out these connections if you read what he has to say carefully:
1) He states God the Father was from another world.
2) That we were intelligences or programs capable of independent thought.
3) We were transformed from intelligences (programs) into spirits - probably an advanced energy form similar in appearance to ourselves that contained our intelligences (programs).
4) This world was settled - a male and female were introduced into the biosphere that both had a physical form melded with this spirit or energy form that had previously been prepared.
5) And after we exist here in physical form, we are literally saved (preserved) and as we advance are given a final eternal physical form that is an enhanced (exalted) form of this physical/spirit being that we are now.

[_huckelberry]

I am wondering how many Mormons accept or reject Tobins unadorned adam god theology. I find it repellent but I am not a Mormon believer. I suspect he has a point that things Mr Smith said can suggest this. Brigham Young clearly thought this was the correct understanding.

A technologically advanced creature from another planet, I do not feel secure trusting that. A creature could have our interests in mind. It would make sense to me to be cautious.

[_Spektical]

This is unsurprisingly similar to accounts of God in our own records. We see a God that intercedes in human affairs from time to time, dispensing advice (and in some instances technological know-how) to us.

Do you have some examples of God imparting of technological know-how? When the holy men of the Bible comment on scientifically testable topics, they're always wrong. You would think that God would have revealed the advanced technology of boiling water and washing hands back during the bronze age, instead of the senseless rules found throughout Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

[_Tobin]

Do you have some examples of God imparting of technological know-how? When the holy men of the Bible comment on scientifically testable topics, they're always wrong. You would think that God would have revealed the advanced technology of boiling water and washing hands back during the bronze age, instead of the senseless rules found throughout Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

He taught Noah how to build an ark. He taught the Nephites how to build a ship to cross the ocean. The same for the Jaredites and their VERY unusual crafts. He also gave the Nephites an advanced compass that also displayed words. All clear signs of the sharing of some type of technology and know how. Even Jesus is peculiar with his miraculous healing abilities. To a primitive species as we would be in comparison, such things that would be rather simple medical treatments to God, might appear to be miracles.

And God may have told people to wash their hands and boil polluted water. These things may have been lost or disregarded by the populations. I am drawing examples from the existing records that we have.

[_Spektical]

Do you have some examples of God imparting of technological know-how? When the holy men of the Bible comment on scientifically testable topics, they're always wrong. You would think that God would have revealed the advanced technology of boiling water and washing hands back during the bronze age, instead of the senseless rules found throughout Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

He taught Noah how to build an ark. He taught the Nephites how to build a ship to cross the ocean. The same for the Jaredites and their VERY unusual crafts. He also gave the Nephites an advanced compass that also displayed words. All clear signs of the sharing of some type of technology and know how. Even Jesus is peculiar with his miraculous healing abilities. To a primitive species as we would be in comparison, such things that would be rather simple medical treatments to God, might appear to be miracles.

And God may have told people to wash their hands and boil polluted water. These things may have been lost or disregarded by the populations. I am drawing examples from the existing records that we have.

I was kind of hoping for non-fictional examples. And if God had taught some society to wash hands and boil water (for the right reasons), that knowledge would have been passed down. Such basic knowledge is almost as relevant to survival as farming.

[_KevinSim]

I am wondering how many Mormons accept or reject Tobins unadorned adam god theology. I find it repellent but I am not a Mormon believer. I suspect he has a point that things Mr Smith said can suggest this. Brigham Young clearly thought this was the correct understanding.

Huckelberry, how do you get "adam god theology" out of anything Tobin said?

[_KevinSim]

You might be interested in process theology.

http://processandfaith.org/about/what-process-theology

Lulu, I started reading this website about Process Theology, but what I'm interested in is the truth about God as God has revealed it to us, and the website didn't look like it was going in that direction at all, so after getting about a quarter of the way into it I bailed out. Thanks for pointing me to it, though.

[_KevinSim]

So you're not Mormon anymore?

As a matter of fact I actually am a Latter-day Saint. I was baptized September 1967 and have been an active member ever since.

Because the Church tells us this is the way it is.

http://Mormon.org/faq/nature-of-god/

God is perfect, all wise, and all-powerful; the ruler of the universe.

I am fully willing to agree that God is all-wise and all-powerful; the question is, what do those terms mean? God can be all-wise without knowing in advance whether or not I'm going to still be active in the Church in 2022. And God being all-powerful definitely does not mean God can do anything that can be imagined, because it's possible to imagine God creating intelligence out of nothing, and yet Do&Co 93:29 clearly says intelligence cannot be created, even by God.