CONFUSED: Gay, active LDS, married with three kids.. WTF?

[_Simon Southerton]

Okay, so without asking for the sample sizes of the research he might fall back on I would ask what causes a correlation between being left handed and being homosexual. If a child is forced to use their right hand might that cause them to go straight rather than gay? Give me a break.

Are you interested in the truth Fiannan or would you prefer to just mock? Bill Bradshaw is a respected former BYU professor who has spent a lot of time studying sexual orientation. Do you honestly think that your sniping logic helps here? Bradshaw is talking about correlation NOT causation. The correlations he cites add further evidence that homosexuality is controlled by genes. We don't know how but the facts are the facts. There is a correlation between handedness and sexual orientation. It is probably quite small but it is real and one day we will probably know why.

[_Fiannan]

Identical twins studies (and other areas of research) have proven conclusively that there is significant genetic control of sexual orientation. It may be as large as 30-50%. But just because we can't point our finger at a list of controlling genes doesn't mean it isn't under strong genetic control, as the human height studies have demonstrated. It is very likely that in the next few years many of the genes contributing to sexual orientation will be identified. It is also known that the foetal and early childhood environment strongly influence sexual orientation. These influences (genes and early environment) are beyond the control of the individual and are effectively inborn.

Where the twin studies on twins raised in the same home or were they like the Minnisota study on twins dealing with only people seperated by adoption?

Also, what is it, the amniotic environment or genes? Or does one need both? Sounds like speculation to me.

Also, if by some chance it was found to be genetic how would you feel about parents being able to identify gay embryos and aborting them? Just curious.

[_Samantabhadra]

early environment [is] beyond the control of the individual and...effectively inborn.

That's quite a claim! But I see your point, and was unaware of the identical twin studies. Thanks for the clarification.

[_Simon Southerton]

Where the twin studies on twins raised in the same home or were they like the Minnisota study on twins dealing with only people seperated by adoption?

Both. Some studies compare monozygotic twins separated at birth. Some studies compare rates of same sex attraction in monozygotic and dizygotic twins (same or non same sex) where the twins share the same home. These studies have found that rates of same sex attraction are significantly higher in identical twins than same-sex dizygotic twins. This strongly suggests genetics.

Also, what is it, the amniotic environment or genes? Or does one need both? Sounds like speculation to me.

The evidence suggests both contribute. But even the amniotic environment is influenced by the genes of the mother, so it isn't entirely environmental.

Also, if by some chance it was found to be genetic how would you feel about parents being able to identify gay embryos and aborting them? Just curious.

It has been found to be genetic. There is no chance about it. If genetic tests were possible I would be very uncomfortable with people choosing to abort embryos that are very likely to grow into individuals who have same sex attraction. That is because people with same sex attraction are normal human beings whose sexuality lies on the normal distribution of human sexuality.

[_Kishkumen]

I thought it was a powerful story, but in the end it is one valid story among many other valid stories. One thing that wasn't clearly articulated in the post is that human sexual orientation doesn't neatly partition into two neat little boxes; homosexual and heterosexual. It is a wide spectrum, hence the very appropriate use of the rainbow as a symbol. The reason that there is this spectrum is that, like human height, sexual orientation is not controlled by a couple of genes. It is controlled by many. Those of us who are fully heterosexual have high proportions of the heterosexual version (allele) of these genes. Those lying at the other end of the rainbow have mostly the homosexual alleles. And there are those in the middle who have different proportions of both.

There are men (or women) sitting at the homosexual end of the spectrum for whom the thought of having sexual intercourse with a woman (or man) is repulsive. This is how most full heterosexuals feel about the thought of having intercourse with someone of their own sex. There is no way that the guy writing the post is at the fully homosexual end of the spectrum.

There is a very real danger that LDS leaders will point to this couple and say "see it is possible". Yes, there will be a small percentage who are LUCKY and things could work out, but a very large percentage of people who choose this route will end up in miserable marriages that will almost certainly end in tears, through no fault of their own. They will be fighting against their own biology. I think another factor in this couple's favour is that they are clearly both very intelligent, educated and highly articulate people and they came from very understanding families. They are to a large extent an exception, not the rule.

Fantastic post. It's too bad that your reliance on science to reach your sound and sensible conclusions discredits you in the eyes of those who would rather follow a literal reading of Genesis.

[_Kishkumen]

It has been found to be genetic. There is no chance about it. If genetic tests were possible I would be very uncomfortable with people choosing to abort embryos that are very likely to grow into individuals who have same sex attraction. That is because people with same sex attraction are normal human beings whose sexuality lies on the normal distribution of human sexuality.

The days of the secular anti-abortionists may be just around the corner.

[_DarkHelmet]

He probably dresses her up like a guy and makes her wear a strap on.

[_3sheets2thewind]

Bcspace, you have not answered the question. What is miracle in a person making a choice, which choice is in accordance with the gospel.

Or will you just tuck tail and run without showing.g any support for your unsubstantiated claim.

[_Fiannan]

It has been found to be genetic. There is no chance about it. If genetic tests were possible I would be very uncomfortable with people choosing to abort embryos that are very likely to grow into individuals who have same sex attraction. That is because people with same sex attraction are normal human beings whose sexuality lies on the normal distribution of human sexuality.

Really? Please list the sources of the proof. I would be very interested in seeing them. And while I believe that genetics plays a huge factor in such things as intelligence I am not convinced there is a "heterosexual -- homosexual" gene expression.

As for abortion, people abort healthy kids every minute of every day. I am sure there are plenty of secular people who, if there really was a DNA test for gayness, would quickly abort such a child -- especially the male ones. At least with lesbians you can still get grandchildren quite easily.

[_Brackite]

King David, who ended up marrying several wives, may have been gay himself.

1 Samuel 18:1-4 (NKJV)

18 Now when he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 Saul took him that day, and would not let him go home to his father’s house anymore. 3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan took off the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, even to his sword and his bow and his belt.

1 Samuel 20:41-42 (NKJV)

41 As soon as the lad had gone, David arose from a place toward the south, fell on his face to the ground, and bowed down three times. And they kissed one another; and they wept together, but David more so. 42 Then Jonathan said to David, “Go in peace, since we have both sworn in the name of the Lord, saying, ‘May the Lord be between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants, forever.’” So he arose and departed, and Jonathan went into the city.

1 Samuel 25:42-43 (NKJV)

42 So Abigail rose in haste and rode on a donkey, attended by five of her maidens; and she followed the messengers of David, and became his wife. 43 David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel, and so both of them were his wives.

2 Samuel 1:22-26 (NKJV)

22 From the blood of the slain,
From the fat of the mighty,
The bow of Jonathan did not turn back,
And the sword of Saul did not return empty.

23 “Saul and Jonathan were beloved and pleasant in their lives,
And in their death they were not divided;
They were swifter than eagles,
They were stronger than lions.

24 “O daughters of Israel, weep over Saul,
Who clothed you in scarlet, with luxury;
Who put ornaments of gold on your apparel.

25 “How the mighty have fallen in the midst of the battle!
Jonathan was slain in your high places.

26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan;
You have been very pleasant to me;
Your love to me was wonderful,
Surpassing the love of women.