Joe Geisner wrote:http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/06/who-authored-the-eight-witness-statement/
Royal has put up his eight witness statement post.
I wonder if he has read Dan Vogel's article? Everything he writes fits perfectly into Dan's historical analysis. As Dan discusses, it make sense that Smith had made plates of tin by the time the eight handled them, and Royal writes "The emphasis in their statement is on what they saw. For instance, the plates had “the appearance of gold”, and the engravings had “the appearance of ancient work and of curious workmanship”. They did not claim the plates were made of gold; they did not claim that the work was ancient or skillfully done – but from what they could see, it was so! The plates were heavy – they hefted them."
This fits into Dan's article perfectly!
Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not. Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
Dan Vogel wrote: Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.
Actually John said that he saw the engravings and turned the pages over. How could he do this if the plates were covered? Since John was around at the time of translation with his brother david and all was done by a supernatural power (seer stones, head in hat, revealing of gold plates, angels, visions etc), the equation of the any experience with the Book of Mormon is by a supernatural power would be common for that time period.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Even though he left the church, he didn't leave his testimony of the divinity and authenticity of the Book of Mormon. In 1888, Philander Page, Hiram's Son, was interviewed and had this to say about his father:
"I knew my father to be true and faithful to his testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon until the very last. Whenever he had an opportunity to bear his testimony to this effect, he would always do so, and seemed to rejoice exceedingly in having been privileged to see the plates and thus become one of the Eight Witnesses."
Notice to see the plates.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Joe Geisner wrote:http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/06/who-authored-the-eight-witness-statement/
Royal has put up his eight witness statement post.
I wonder if he has read Dan Vogel's article? Everything he writes fits perfectly into Dan's historical analysis. As Dan discusses, it make sense that Smith had made plates of tin by the time the eight handled them, and Royal writes "The emphasis in their statement is on what they saw. For instance, the plates had “the appearance of gold”, and the engravings had “the appearance of ancient work and of curious workmanship”. They did not claim the plates were made of gold; they did not claim that the work was ancient or skillfully done – but from what they could see, it was so! The plates were heavy – they hefted them."
This fits into Dan's article perfectly!
Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.
I don't have anything to say about this topic, but I did want to say that I really love your signature line! I'm pretty sure I have heard it before, but I had forgotten about it. I hope you don't mind that I'm going to use it for my signature line for a while.
Sorry to interrupt.....
"I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not." Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
Carton wrote:I don't have anything to say about this topic, but I did want to say that I really love your signature line! I'm pretty sure I have heard it before, but I had forgotten about it. I hope you don't mind that I'm going to use it for my signature line for a while.
Sorry to interrupt.....
I have used that signature line for years on the MDD board. It was a great statment to make. Here is the history of it:
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: Actually John said that he saw the engravings and turned the pages over. How could he do this if the plates were covered?
How about a translucent cloth. He said it was shown unto him by a supernatural power. Why could this not include some visionary experience in which he sees and handles the plates. Lots of possibilities which really is the point.
Even though he left the church, he didn't leave his testimony of the divinity and authenticity of the Book of Mormon. In 1888, Philander Page, Hiram's Son, was interviewed and had this to say about his father:
"I knew my father to be true and faithful to his testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon until the very last. Whenever he had an opportunity to bear his testimony to this effect, he would always do so, and seemed to rejoice exceedingly in having been privileged to see the plates and thus become one of the Eight Witnesses."
Notice to see the plates.
Source? Thanks.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
Dan Vogel wrote: Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.
Actually John said that he saw the engravings and turned the pages over. How could he do this if the plates were covered? Since John was around at the time of translation with his brother david and all was done by a supernatural power (seer stones, head in hat, revealing of gold plates, angels, visions etc), the equation of the any experience with the Book of Mormon is by a supernatural power would be common for that time period.
John “Whitmer replied: ‘I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them;’ and he described how they were hung, and ‘they were shown to me by a supernatural power;’ he acknowledged all.” emphasis mine (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 307)
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
Dan Vogel wrote: Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.
Actually John said that he saw the engravings and turned the pages over. How could he do this if the plates were covered? Since John was around at the time of translation with his brother david and all was done by a supernatural power (seer stones, head in hat, revealing of gold plates, angels, visions etc), the equation of the any experience with the Book of Mormon is by a supernatural power would be common for that time period.
John “Whitmer replied: ‘I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them;’ and he described how they were hung, and ‘they were shown to me by a supernatural power;’ he acknowledged all.”
The set up for J. Whitmer's alleged "supernatural" statement, I believe, is that Turley was giving a statement re possible MO reparations.
Turley is a true believer, J. Whitmer is an apostate. Turley is challenging J. Whitmer's ill feelings against the church during this encounter in MO.
Turley's statement was being recorded by a scribe a # of years after it was allegedly made.
I understand there are # of other J. Whitmer statements on point that are not reported as including the "supernatural."
If that is really what J. Whitmer said on the occassion in question, why did he include "supernatural"? Did he think it made the testimony more believable or less believable?
Why did Turley include the "supernatural" element? Simply because that's what he remembered hearing? Did Turley think it would add to the probative power of J. Whitmer's statement?
I think Turley's statement that J. Whitmer "acknowledged all" is interesting. As if the "supernatural" element was an important part of Turley's understanding of the traditional narrative of which Turley had to have had knowledge.
Some apologist's argument that Turley merely confused J. Whitmer's experience as one of the 8 with David's, one of the 3, who saw the angel doesn't wash with me. Surely Turley knew of the testimonies and who was who, he'd been a missionary and was trusted to do clean up in MO.
So Turley thought that at least one of the 8 had seen the plates with "suprnatural" aid and that it was a good thing?
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.