Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

[_gdemetz]

Yea, they saw the plates and "handled" them. That sounds pretty physical to me.

[_Drifting]

Yea, they saw the plates and "handled" them. That sounds pretty physical to me.

What do you think the phrase "I saw them with spiritual eyes" means?

[_why me]

]So you don't think it makes any difference if Joseph Smith, 3 witnesses, 8 witnesses saw the plates with

their positivistic, empirical, naturalistic, non-metaphysical eyes

or

they only saw them with their spiritual, metaphysical, supernatural eyes?[/color]

You will need to read the two statements. The D&C section you listed fits well with the three witness statement. All the witnesses were not exactly immune to questions and answers throughout their lives about their experiences. They did not have a written response in their pocket. They explained the process as they remembered it. As I said before, there is no difference with spiritual eyes or just plain eyes. They had a spiritual experience which they never denied. They never contradicted their statement in the Book of Mormon and all knew that the statement was there. Nor did they ask for this statement to be removed.

spiritual eyes: a spiritual experience seen with the eyes. Perfectly okay to describe what they saw and experienced at times. It gives some color to an experience they had to explain over and over again. And it is a good adjective to use to create a process in the mind of the questioner.

[_lulu]

]So you don't think it makes any difference if Joseph Smith, 3 witnesses, 8 witnesses saw the plates with

their positivistic, empirical, naturalistic, non-metaphysical eyes

or

they only saw them with their spiritual, metaphysical, supernatural eyes?[/color]

You will need to read the two statements. The D&C section you listed fits well with the three witness statement. All the witnesses were not exactly immune to questions and answers throughout their lives about their experiences. They did not have a written response in their pocket. They explained the process as they remembered it. As I said before, there is no difference with spiritual eyes or just plain eyes. They had a spiritual experience which they never denied. They never contradicted their statement in the Book of Mormon and all knew that the statement was there. Nor did they ask for this statement to be removed.

spiritual eyes: a spiritual experience seen with the eyes. Perfectly okay to decribe it this way at times.

Nice duck.

Let's start with the D&C and get real specific.

"even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them"

How did Joseph Smith see the plates?

Could they have been taken to an assayer, had one been so inclined, and been analysed?

[_why me]

How did Joseph Smith see the plates?

Could they have been taken to an assayer, had one been so inclined, and been analysed?[/color]

He was shown where the plates were by an angel and he dug them up. He handled the plates, hid the plates, ran though the woods with the plates, put the plates on a wagon and drove the plates around and around.

Joseph first inclination was to sell the plates since he saw dollars to be made. He was punished and saw the light about the plates. Thus it all began.

It wasn't god purpose to take the plates to an assayer.

[_lulu]

How did Joseph Smith see the plates?

Could they have been taken to an assayer, had one been so inclined, and been analysed?[/color]

He was shown where the plates were by an angel and he dug them up. He handled the plates, hid the plates, ran though the woods with the plates, put the plates on a wagon and drove the plates around and around.

Joseph first inclination was to sell the plates since he saw dollars to be made. He was punished and saw the light about the plates. Thus it all began.

It wasn't god purpose to take the plates to an assayer.

Another duck. Pretty soon you'll have a whole flock.

When Joseph Smith saw the plates, was he seeing something that was objectively and empirically real?

[_Darth J]

I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.

[_lulu]

I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.

And I'm wondering why D&C 17 doesn't just say, you'll see the plates. Why the need for the qualifier - as Joseph Smith has seen them?

The qualifier places in issue - How did Joseph Smith see them?

Is it saying that Joseph Smith saw them in something other than a naturalistic, object, emperical way?

[_Darth J]

I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.

And I'm wondering why D&C 17 doesn't just say, you'll see the plates. Why the need for the qualifier - as Joseph Smith has seen them?

The qualifier places in issue - How did Joseph Smith see them?

Is it saying that Joseph Smith saw them in something other than a naturalistic, object, emperical way?

Or one might ask why the witnesses needed to sincerely believe in Joseph Smith's story before they would be allowed to see the plates.

[_lulu]

Or one might ask why the witnesses needed to sincerely believe in Joseph Smith's story before they would be allowed to see the plates.

Well really. Just getting in to this topic but did Joseph Smith only see them with his spiritual eyes, thus when the 3 saw them just like Joseph Smith, they only saw them with their spiritual eyes?

But it looks like gmetz and why me don't want to discuss.

Maybe they've been called into an emmergency meeting in the Apologetics Central Situation Room over you know what.