beastie wrote:I agree with your assessment. The funny part about that whole fight - it wasn't really a debate by the end but a brawl - was that I was never even categorically defending the pious fraud theory. I was simply suggesting that it ought not to be discarded outright, and ought to be seriously considered. Yet Benson and Cabbie couldn't tolerate even that suggestion. One of Cabbie's statements (other than saying I was product of incest ;) that irked me the most was him making a declaration that the issue had been settled somehow on the board, and the conclusion was Joseph Smith was simply a narcissist. Case closed. Now, maybe he was a narcissist and it was as simple as that. Certainly he was a narcissist, anyway, but the case closed part isn't clear in my view. But what bugged me was the group-think that Cabbie was insinuating had taken place on the board. I knew there had to be other posters who did not necessarily think the case was closed, either, but their voices were not allowed to be heard, due to Benson and Cabbie basically shouting them down. The group-think just didn't seem to be a healthy dynamic to me, and it does have to do with the celebrity problem.
by the way, this:
There's a great quote from Madam Blavatsky along the lines of she lied to get people to see the truth. Although I don't think you could get Joseph Smith to say that but on some psycological level, that was part of what he was up to. Although I don't think much of what he was trying to get people to see was the truth.
to me, reflects my understanding of the pious fraud theory in a nutshell. Joseph Smith thought there was some sort of "truth" that lies helped people to see. That idea is clearly reflected in his "scriptures". I think there is a good chance he was so narcissistic he was able to convince himself that that was what he was doing, rather than simply running a con. Of course he was running a con of sorts, but the most convincing conmen are the ones who are "true believers" in their own cons. That's what debating the pious fraud theory is about, to me. Did Joseph Smith believe his own con?
The idea that that discussion was verboten on RFM stunned me.
I agree and it was too bad it could not have gone deeper. I'd explore, and perhaps be proven wrong, that Joseph Smith both had "hallucinations" and committed frauds. That's clearly not what either Benson or Vogel were saying. But I think it would be worth pursuing. But you're right, it would not have been heard in that thread.
Sorry you came out so bruised, I was too chicken crap to engage.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
lulu wrote: I agree and it was too bad it could not have gone deeper. I'd explore, and perhaps be proven wrong, that Joseph Smith both had "hallucinations" and committed frauds. That's clearly not what either Benson or Vogel were saying. But I think it would be worth pursuing. But you're right, it would not have been heard in that thread.
Sorry you came out so bruised, I was too chicken s*** to engage.
Don't feel badly about it - you or any other poster would have to have been a masochist to draw Benson and Cabbie's attention in that thread. And the bruising didn't really affect me - I already participated very little on RFM, so it didn't hurt my feelings to leave it entirely. It just saddened me to see the board that had been such a big part of my own recovery descend to that point.
One of my own pet theories has been that Joseph Smith may have had bipolar. One researcher has asserted that numerous descendants of Joseph Smith had bipolar, including his son David, If I recall correctly (that one is clear, don't know about the evidence for the others). Bipolar mania definitely can include hallucinations, and they often include religious overtones.
But it's just one idea among many. There is no way we'll ever really know.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
lulu wrote: I agree and it was too bad it could not have gone deeper. I'd explore, and perhaps be proven wrong, that Joseph Smith both had "hallucinations" and committed frauds. That's clearly not what either Benson or Vogel were saying. But I think it would be worth pursuing. But you're right, it would not have been heard in that thread.
Sorry you came out so bruised, I was too chicken s*** to engage.
Don't feel badly about it - you or any other poster would have to have been a masochist to draw Benson and Cabbie's attention in that thread. And the bruising didn't really affect me - I already participated very little on RFM, so it didn't hurt my feelings to leave it entirely. It just saddened me to see the board that had been such a big part of my own recovery descend to that point.
One of my own pet theories has been that Joseph Smith may have had bipolar. One researcher has asserted that numerous descendants of Joseph Smith had bipolar, including his son David, If I recall correctly (that one is clear, don't know about the evidence for the others). Bipolar mania definitely can include hallucinations, and they often include religious overtones.
But it's just one idea among many. There is no way we'll ever really know.
And it's so hard to diagnose the dead. Hell, shrinks still have a heard time diagnosing the living.
I don't know how she managed to avoid Mormonism in such a book. She does a nice job on African influences in American revivals.
She looks at visions and such from the French Prophets (devils or the Spirit) to Williams James psychologizing about them.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.