Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

[_lulu]

I'll wait, maybe one of you can come up with something.

I'll wait, maybe you can answer my question on the need for the qualifying phrase in section 17 better than why me did.

[_marg]

Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!

For one the most logical position to hold in evaluating situations which appear to be frauds plus which make extraordinary claims highly improbably is to not accept the claims until evidence justifies those claims.

But all the evidence points to a fraud and that those involved in key positions colluded.

It is not unusual that those involved in a fraud should present themselves as witnesses...that's to be expected. They do not make reliable witnesses...and that includes the Book of Mormon translation witnesses.

Now if there were witnesses with no vested interest in the enterprise that would raise their credibility.

[_thews]

Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!

Regarding the Kinderhook plates, it's not too difficult to get a group of people to "witness" something:

http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm

We, the citizens of Kinderhook, whose names are annexed, do certify and declare that on the 23rd of April, 1843, while excavating a large mound in this vicinity, Mr. R. Wiley took from said mound six brass plates of a bell shape, covered with ancient characters. Said plates were very much oxydated. The bands and rings on said plates mouldered into dust on a slight pressure. ROBERT WILEY, W. LONGNECKER, GEO. DECKENSON, FAYETTE GRUBB, W. FUGATE, W. P. HARRIS, J. R. SHARP, G. W. F. WARD, IRA S. CURTIS, (From the Quincy Whig.)

Regarding the witnesses to the supposed golden plates, I think David Whitmer was very clear:

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them."

And then we have the Soloman Spalding "witnesses"

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

SOLOMON SPALDING WITNESSES

There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon. Seven people wrote affidavits testifying that they had read early drafts of the Book of Mormon by author Solomon Spalding. In some ways they are more credible than the Book of Mormon witnesses as they each wrote their own account instead of merely signing a prepared statement.

Here's the testimony of the first of these seven witnesses, the brother of Solomon Spalding:

He [Solomon] then told me had he been writing a book, which he intended to have printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay all his debts. The book was entitled the "Manuscript Found," of which he read to me many passages. -- It was a historical romance of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of NEPHI AND LEHI. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences and civilization were brought into view, in order to account for all the curious antiquities, found in various [280] parts of North and South America. I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my great surprize I find nearly the same historical matter, names, &c. as they were in my brother's writings. I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with "and it came to pass," or "now it came to pass," the same as in the Book of Mormon, and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter. -- By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. I am unable to determine.
JOHN SPALDING."

To read the rest of the witnesses claiming Solomon Spalding wrote the book that was modified into the Book of Mormon: http://www.mormonstudies.com/witness.htm

You never use data in your arguments gdemetz nor address data presented... why is that?

[_gdemetz]

What more evidence could I add all these years later. You have enough evidence and testimonies and witnesses. If you still choose to be spiritually blind, then so be it. You are the ones who will have to account for that.

[_marg]

So gdemetz do you believe D. Whitmer that God spoke to him and told him to leave the LDS church?

[_cafe crema]

Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!

And yet another high point in online Mormon apologetics. If we get any higher, we'll run out of oxygen.

I'll wait, maybe one of you can come up with something.

I'll wait, maybe you can answer my question on the need for the qualifying phrase in section 17 better than why me did.

What more evidence could I add all these years later. You have enough evidence and testimonies and witnesses. If you still choose to be spiritually blind, then so be it. You are the ones who will have to account for that.

With the latest response I doubt you'll get an answer, I think we're out of oxygen now.

[_lulu]

What more evidence could I add

An answer to my question?

[_gdemetz]

Spaulding theory?! Is that the best you guys can do? FAIR shoots that bull down for the following reasons:

1- This manuscript found in the late 19th century bears no resemblance to the Book of Mormon.

2- No second manuscript that these theorists claim has ever been found.

3- There is no persuasive evidence that Sidney Rigdon ever contacted Joseph Smith before the Book of Mormon's publication.

"Until the purported manuscript appears, all these critics have is a non existent document which they claim says anything they want. This is doubtless the attraction of the theory and shows the lengths to which critics will go to {try} to disprove the Book of Mormon {especially on Mormon Discussions}.

"It is interesting to consider that the best explanation such critics can propose requires that they invent a document, then invent its contents, and then invent a means of getting the document to Joseph via Sidney."

And I may add, that these same critics will discard the overwhelming evidence that shows otherwise!!!

[_beefcalf]

gdmetz, I am interested in hearing your answer to marg's question:

So gdemetz do you believe D. Whitmer that God spoke to him and told him to leave the LDS church?

[_gdemetz]

No.