Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_why me]

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. That is not how Joseph Smith translated. Joseph Smith "translated" by the gift and power of God.

You forgot to mention "through the mercy of god..." (D&C 1:29)

[_Shulem]

There is little use in arguing with TOBIN and WHYME. They are a pair of yapping jesters.



Paul O

[_Tobin]

There is little use in arguing with TOBIN and WHYME. They are a pair of yapping jesters. Paul O

And everyone represents how intelligent you are Paul?!? It would seem you are incapable of responding to us in a cogent manner, so you would rather engage in traducement instead. Do you have a reasonable response to the position that Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God and was unable to read or understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics, or are you completely unable to deal with that?

[_Shulem]

Joe Smith translating by the gift and power of his god as he comes up with more storyline and sacred words of the mumble jumble alphabet! Kolob-Hah-ko-kau-beamKae-e-vanrashKli-flos-is-esKae-e-vanrash! Abracadabra!!



Paul O

[_Tobin]

Joe Smith translating by the gift and power of his god as he comes up with more storyline and sacred words of the mumble jumble alphabet! Kolob-Hah-ko-kau-beamKae-e-vanrashKli-flos-is-esKae-e-vanrash! Abracadabra!! Paul O

So, this is the best you've got?!? I have to wonder who the real jester is here.

[_Chap]

There is little use in arguing with TOBIN and WHYME. They are a pair of yapping jesters. Paul O

And everyone represents how intelligent you are Paul?!? It would seem you are incapable of responding to us in a cogent manner, so you would rather engage in traducement instead. Do you have a reasonable response to the position that Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God and was unable to read or understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics, or are you completely unable to deal with that?

I think I would understand better what Tobin means if he could kindly explain what 'translate' means in his usage exemplified in this sentence.

I think that for most people, 'translate' is only used in reference to written texts in human languages under circumstances like this:

1. The is a text, T1, in the 'source language' L1.

2. Person X inspects T1, then composes a text, T2, in the target language L2.

3. The meaning conveyed by T2 to a person able to read language L2 is substantially identical to the meaning conveyed by T1 to a person able to read language L1.

Person X is then said to have 'translated' the text T1 into language L2.

But that does not seem to be what you mean here when you write

... Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God and was unable to read or understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics ....

Would you accept re-wording to:

... Joseph Smith received and recorded the English text known as the Book of Abraham by the gift and power of God and was unable to read or understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics ....

/

[Guest]

...

No, that is not what I mean, nor is it what Joseph Smith did.

Again, if Joseph Smith was merely a copyist, God could have just appeared and handed him the manuscript instead. Joseph Smith would be completely unnecessary if that is what happened.

I believe when it is stated that Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, it was a cognitive process involving learning, thinking, the transmission of concepts, events, images, smells, and a whole array of senses and information that needed to be processed and codified into English (at times incorrectly due to his human failings) by Joseph Smith. Since I have never done it, I can't tell you precisely - but I suspect that would be a better representation of what happened. He certainly didn't learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics by doing so. And I doubt he learned reformed Egyptian either when translating the Book of Mormon.

[_Shulem]

So, this is the best you've got?!? I have to wonder who the real jester is here.

You're looking at it!

[_DarkHelmet]

Who cares. It will all be solved when we die. If Joseph was a true prophet..well...good luck. If not, well...good luck. If the catholics were right...well...you can go and visit Joseph and have a nice conversation with him.

And if nothing happens...just blackness and a ceasing of existence..well...it doesn't matter anyway.

It does matter. The business of religion uses your logic to gain customers, and you fell for it. "Pay me money today, and I will talk to god and guarantee you go to heaven. What do you have to lose?" It's the oldest business in the book (or maybe second oldest).

[_Shulem]

I think that for most people, 'translate' is only used in reference to written texts in human languages under circumstances like this:

1. The is a text, T1, in the 'source language' L1.

2. Person X inspects T1, then composes a text, T2, in the target language L2.

3. The meaning conveyed by T2 to a person able to read language L2 is substantially identical to the meaning conveyed by T1 to a person able to read language L1.

Person X is then said to have 'translated' the text T1 into language L2.

You're exactly right. That is how languages are translated. In order to translate the Greek Bible into English you have to have someone who knows the Greek language and the English language. It's actually quite a gifted thing to be able to do such things. Not everyone can do that!

But jesters like Tobin want us to think that Egyptologist Joe Smith translated by the gift and power of God. But when we look at the translation he gave us we can see that Joe Smith's God didn't know the Egyptian language and therefore his translations were bogus. Joe Smith's God was a total idiot. Just look at Facsimile No. 3 and the false wording in the Book of Abraham -- and everything about how the Book of Abraham came forth. What a story!

Joe Smith's God can't read Egyptian.

Paul O