Those who leave
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Re: Those who leave
There was a time when I would have agreed with bcspace. I really felt that the only reason people left the church was because of sin or because they were just too lazy to live up to the standards. I still remember the night I sat on my bed in tears because the hard truth came crashing down on me and I had to admit that the church that I had sacrificed so much for to join just wasn’t true. Even then I did not leave the church hoping I could still fit in but it just didn’t work.
It really bothers me now when I hear people say that we leave because we want to sin. As if I said “You know, I know the church is true but screw exaltation I want to sin!” It also pains me to think how arrogant and judgmental I was of others in the past.
It really bothers me now when I hear people say that we leave because we want to sin. As if I said “You know, I know the church is true but screw exaltation I want to sin!” It also pains me to think how arrogant and judgmental I was of others in the past.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
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Re: Those who leave
son of Ishmael wrote:There was a time when I would have agreed with bcspace. I really felt that the only reason people left the church was because of sin or because they were just too lazy to live up to the standards. I still remember the night I sat on my bed in tears because the hard truth came crashing down on me and I had to admit that the church that I had sacrificed so much for to join just wasn’t true. Even then I did not leave the church hoping I could still fit in but it just didn’t work.
It really bothers me now when I hear people say that we leave because we want to sin. As if I said “You know, I know the church is true but screw exaltation I want to sin!” It also pains me to think how arrogant and judgmental I was of others in the past.
I bet the faithful members of the FLDS church say the same thing about people who leave that religion: unbelief is a sin! Doubting the Prophet Warren Jeffs is a sin! If you leave, it's because you sinned!
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
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Re: Those who leave
Tobin wrote:Underwater basket weaving is a very respectable hobby I'd have you know.Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Thank you for sharing, but I don't care to participate in your negativity.
How old are you?
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
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Re: Those who leave
Old enough to enjoy underwater basket weaving. Care to join me?Lucretia MacEvil wrote:How old are you?Tobin wrote:Underwater basket weaving is a very respectable hobby I'd have you know.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Those who leave
Tobin wrote:Old enough to enjoy underwater basket weaving. Care to join me?
No, thanks. I'm a knitter.
But if you care to address the issue here: I stated two reasons why I don't leave the church alone. That's my situation. I don't leave it alone. Don't intend to. Don't want to. Why should I? It's one part of my life. I actually enjoy history and religion as study subjects, and Mormonism especially from those vantage points. Why are you offering lame "solutions" when there is no problem?
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
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Re: Those who leave
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Tobin wrote:Old enough to enjoy underwater basket weaving. Care to join me?
No, thanks. I'm a knitter.
But if you care to address the issue here: I stated two reasons why I don't leave the church alone. That's my situation. I don't leave it alone. Don't intend to. Don't want to. Why should I? It's one part of my life. I actually enjoy history and religion as study subjects, and Mormonism especially from those vantage points. Why are you offering lame "solutions" when there is no problem?
I'm sure you are having a good time, but I can't imagine that members of your family enjoy having their faith put up for debate. Having been an ex-mormon/atheist, the solution I suggested was to move away, make new friends, and find other interests to pursue. I believe there are just better things to do (and ways to interface with your family) if you no longer believe in it is all.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Those who leave
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Why I can't "leave it alone":
1) I have family who keeps it in my face
2) it's a lot more interesting when you start looking at the history, controversies, etc. from the outside.
Perhaps to show a contrast to Tobin, I really don't mind that people who have left the LDS Church can't bring themselves to leave it alone. Quite frankly it gives me an opportunity to talk to them about why they left.
KevinSim
Reverence the eternal.
Reverence the eternal.
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Re: Those who leave
Albion wrote:Speaking for myself I don't leave it alone for the same reason I would warn someone who is about to or has fallen into a pit. It saddens me to see people buying into a counterfeit, pseudo Christian religious system placing their eternal salvation (real salvation, all that the Father has, not the partial salvation of the Mormon version of the atonement) in jeopardy.
Regarding the "real salvation" that you're talking about, Albion, what exactly do people get saved from?
KevinSim
Reverence the eternal.
Reverence the eternal.
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Re: Those who leave
thews wrote:That's how a cult operates.
Yeah, yeah, the LDS Church is a cult; Biblical Christianity is a relationship, not a religion; and Barack Obama is heavily into politics. People use those three words, cult, religion, and politics, without, as far as I can tell, any idea what those terms mean; they just want to say something derogative. Or are you different, Thews? Can you tell me what a cult precisely is, and why it's such a bad thing?
KevinSim
Reverence the eternal.
Reverence the eternal.
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Re: Those who leave
thews wrote:That's how a cult operates.
I've thought about this a little more. Thews, have you seen "Fiddler on the Roof"? Is it possible to watch that movie and not be haunted by Reb Tevye's decision to treat his daughter Havilah as if she had died when she chose to marry Russian Orthodox (and therefore Christian) Fyedka? Does that make Judaism a cult?
Or is it possible that Judaism just treats its beliefs seriously? So that leaving the faith is indeed a big deal?
I think the same thing is true of the LDS Church. Leaving the United Methodist Church for the Southern Baptist Convention, or vice versa, is not a big deal anymore. Biblical Christians let anybody do it without need for commentary. But, like the Jews, Latter-day Saints treat leaving the LDS Church as if it's a big deal. That does not mean it's a cult, any more than Judaism is a cult.
When my sister's older daughter Rachel left the LDS Church (due to the church's involvement with Proposition 8), neither my sister nor I treated Rachel like she had died. In fact I just got done asking my sister for some way to contact Rachel so I can invite her and her husband to the family reunion we're going to have in August.
KevinSim
Reverence the eternal.
Reverence the eternal.