Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Darth J]

Tobin, are you able to provide a cogent reason as to why your assertions as to what God has told you about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon are any more reliable than Joseph Smith's assertions as to what God told him was written on the Chandler papyri?

[_Themis]

As I've said, this isn't something God drove. God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him, "Now, go ahead and translate this. It is written by Abraham."

You are suggesting that Joseph is telling everyone, including God, that it was written by Abraham and that he now wants God to translate it for him. If person A takes a document to person B and says I have a document written by Abraham, but that person A needs person B to translate it since only person B understands it, what do you think person B will do?

This was something of Joseph Smith's doing himself and something he speculated about. It was unnecessary and something he let his pride, lack of knowledge, and other character flaws influence. Do I hold Joseph Smith blameless for what he mistook? No. But it is understandable.

How is it understandable? I can understand if Joseph is a total imbecile. If he has any intelligence it seems reasonable that one who is talking to God regularly is not going to speculate(especially to the level of attaching text and hieroglyphs, etc) on what they would know they can't know, and will ask God who they are talking to about other things anyways.

What he should have known about the papyri and obvioulsy didn't was up to him to find out from the Lord. It is not God's fault when we misunderstand things and don't seek a clear understanding of what is going on.

Again Joseph needs to be an idiot here, and yes God would be at fault for his participation. Think of my example above.

It is only human nature to be arrogant and assume we know more than we do and something like this is a cautionary tale of what can happen if we let our egos overcome us.

Actually human nature is for those who are not successful to make things up in order to look good. Joseph would not need to impress if he is talking to God and really did get all those revelations and Book of Mormon. In reality he would ask God about the papyri and would have told us it was funerary documents. Just how impressive would that have been. His behavior strongly suggests someone who is making up things to build himself up. Someone who has been making it up all along.

[_Spektical]

I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.

The problem here is that you keep using the word "translate" when you should be using "reveal." That is confusing. Translation is when you have a text in one language and write the same text in another language. If you want to believe that the Book of Abraham is pure revelation, then fine, but stop calling it a translation.

[Guest]

I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.

The problem here is that you keep using the word "translate" when you should be using "reveal." That is confusing. Translation is when you have a text in one language and write the same text in another language. If you want to believe that the Book of Abraham is pure revelation, then fine, but stop calling it a translation.

It isn't my wording. It the wording that Joseph Smith used in referring the process of taking texts (whether it be the Gold Plates) or the original written texts by Abraham and turning them into the English texts we have.

[_Tobin]

As I've said, this isn't something God drove. God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him, "Now, go ahead and translate this. It is written by Abraham."

You are suggesting that Joseph is telling everyone, including God, that it was written by Abraham and that he now wants God to translate it for him. If person A takes a document to person B and says I have a document written by Abraham, but that person A needs person B to translate it since only person B understands it, what do you think person B will do?

God didn't translate it.

This was something of Joseph Smith's doing himself and something he speculated about. It was unnecessary and something he let his pride, lack of knowledge, and other character flaws influence. Do I hold Joseph Smith blameless for what he mistook? No. But it is understandable.

How is it understandable? I can understand if Joseph is a total imbecile. If he has any intelligence it seems reasonable that one who is talking to God regularly is not going to speculate(especially to the level of attaching text and hieroglyphs, etc) on what they would know they can't know, and will ask God who they are talking to about other things anyways.

Again, Joseph Smith was not God's sock puppet. He wasn't handed translations nor given everything on a gold platter.

What he should have known about the papyri and obvioulsy didn't was up to him to find out from the Lord. It is not God's fault when we misunderstand things and don't seek a clear understanding of what is going on.

Again Joseph needs to be an idiot here, and yes God would be at fault for his participation. Think of my example above.

I don't buy your example. Your assumption that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet isn't realistic.

It is only human nature to be arrogant and assume we know more than we do and something like this is a cautionary tale of what can happen if we let our egos overcome us.

Actually human nature is for those who are not successful to make things up in order to look good. Joseph would not need to impress if he is talking to God and really did get all those revelations and Book of Mormon. In reality he would ask God about the papyri and would have told us it was funerary documents. Just how impressive would that have been. His behavior strongly suggests someone who is making up things to build himself up. Someone who has been making it up all along.

That is your theory. You also happen to be wrong. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and God will tell you that if you would speak with him.

[_Spektical]

It isn't my wording. It the wording that Joseph Smith used in referring the process of taking texts (whether it be the Gold Plates) or the original written texts by Abraham and turning them into the English texts we have.

Yeah but you're misinterpreting his words. Smith wasn't using the word "translate" in the sense that you are. You're superimposing your own meaning onto his, and that creates confusion. Smith also never claimed to be translating from anything other than portions of the papyrus that we can readily identify, so he's certainly not "translating" some other undiscovered Abrahamic text. So even if the Book of Abraham is at all accurate, it's not the product of a "translation" in the ordinary sense. Attaching "by the gift and power of God" does nothing to mitigate your misuse of the word.

[Guest]

It isn't my wording. It the wording that Joseph Smith used in referring the process of taking texts (whether it be the Gold Plates) or the original written texts by Abraham and turning them into the English texts we have.

Yeah but you're misinterpreting his words. Smith wasn't using the word "translate" in the sense that you are. You're superimposing your own meaning onto his, and that creates confusion. Smith also never claimed to be translating from anything other than portions of the papyrus that we can readily identify, so he's certainly not "translating" some other undiscovered Abrahamic text. So even if the Book of Abraham is at all accurate, it's not the product of a "translation" in the ordinary sense. Attaching "by the gift and power of God" does nothing to mitigate your misuse of the word.

No, I'm actually being very true to his words and what he stated. The assumption that he could read (and understood) the texts in question isn't founded in fact. The Lord didn't teach Joseph Smith reformed Egyptian and then ask him to translate the Book of Mormon . The same is true here as well. The Lord didn't instantly teach Joseph Smith Egyptian Hieroglyphics and have him translate the papyri. The idea that he looked at the papyri and could immediately read them is laughable. And that would have been pointless, since the papyri are Egyptian and DO NOT CONTAIN the Book of Abraham.

[_Drifting]

Tobin,

How do you interpret these words of joseph's?

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

Because he looks to me to be saying that he got his hands on some papyrus which Abraham himself had written on and he translated it.

[_stemelbow]

You said the origins of the stories in the book of Abraham were unimportant so long as people found spiritual upliftment from them (I think that's what you said.

Paul H Dunn made up stories which people found spiritually uplifting despite their origins.

No. YOu missed my point. I didn't say that.

[_stemelbow]

many members are open minded enough to realize their faith could be wrong. This is why this issue is a major one for the church.

I don't think you've connected the dots. It's not really a major issue for the Church. And it has nothing to do with whether there are many members who are open minded enough to realize their faith could be wrong, afterall I am open minded enough to realize that.