son of Ishmael wrote:"...no desire to understand where the Mormons they go after are coming from"
I know exactly where Mormons are coming from. I was a TBM for thirty years. I have seen the church from their perspective so I can relate to them, but they can't see the church from my perspective now so they can not relate to me. So I either get hostility as in “you must have sinned” or I get condescension as in “we just need to love him…”
If you truly know where Mormons are coming from then more power to you.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Tobin wrote: Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and God will tell you that if you would speak with him.
How do you actually go about speaking with God in a way that leads to him speaking back? I'm being completely sincere here. From reading your posts so far it seems that when you say "speaking with God," you actually mean something far more concrete than the "pray and you'll feel a burning in the bosom" epistemology that we're taught in the LDS church.
I have felt those good feelings that are associated with the spirit, but God has never spoken to me. That is not something I have ever been taught to expect or taught how to achieve. Is there a way to achieve it that we haven't been taught?
Tobin wrote: Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and God will tell you that if you would speak with him.
How do you actually go about speaking with God in a way that leads to him speaking back? I'm being completely sincere here. From reading your posts so far it seems that when you say "speaking with God," you actually mean something far more concrete than the "pray and you'll feel a burning in the bosom" epistemology that we're taught in the LDS church.
I have felt those good feelings that are associated with the spirit, but God has never spoken to me. That is not something I have ever been taught to expect or taught how to achieve. Is there a way to achieve it that we haven't been taught?
Yes there IS!!!
but ...
... the only person who can tell you how to do it is God.
(What else did you expect?)
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Tobin wrote: Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and God will tell you that if you would speak with him.
How do you actually go about speaking with God in a way that leads to him speaking back? I'm being completely sincere here. From reading your posts so far it seems that when you say "speaking with God," you actually mean something far more concrete than the "pray and you'll feel a burning in the bosom" epistemology that we're taught in the LDS church.
I have felt those good feelings that are associated with the spirit, but God has never spoken to me. That is not something I have ever been taught to expect or taught how to achieve. Is there a way to achieve it that we haven't been taught?
You are correct. I don't believe feelings are a sufficient reason to believe in Mormonism. Mormonism is a revealed religion and there is no reason to believe Joseph Smith was anything other than a fraud without knowing that God called him as a prophet.
Anyway, I'd like to tell you there is a formula, a rain dance, or a set of magic words that would allow one to see God, but that isn't how to go about such things. It is natural for us to demand proof, but the attitude of making demands of God in such a manner is unlikely to succeed in my view. It certainly isn't something to be conducted lightly. However, if you are of the attitude that this is something that is important to you - to know the truth and speak with God - then you must be as Gautama and immovable in that belief. Follow that example and be dedicated in believing in the Lord and serving your fellow man. After all, Gautama didn't just try or attempt to discover the truth for a day, a month or a year. He vowed to sit under the Bodhi tree and never to arise UNTIL he had found the truth.
Now, this may not be what you wish to do and you may not believe in such things including the Lord. However, there is still a way to speak with the Lord. I would encourage you to live a good honest life in service and kindness to others and with an openness and dedication to the truth. When the Lord wishes to speak with you, he will. I would encourage you to meditate (a good practice to relieve stress no matter your beliefs) and ask the Lord each day to speak with you. It can not hurt since it demonstrates dedication and determination on your part. But, ultimately it is up to you; and between you and the Lord.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: But, ultimately it is up to you; and between you and the Lord.
Tobin, allow me to offer you a bloody revelation. The "Lord" you speak of is your imaginary friend -- the little voice in your head and happy feeling you get.
Do enjoy your little friend. Tell him, "Hi" for me.
Tobin wrote:You are correct. I don't believe feelings are a sufficient reason to believe in Mormonism. Mormonism is a revealed religion and there is no reason to believe Joseph Smith was anything other than a fraud without knowing that God called him as a prophet.
Anyway, I'd like to tell you there is a formula, a rain dance, or a set of magic words that would allow one to see God, but that isn't how to go about such things. It is natural for us to demand proof, but the attitude of making demands of God in such a manner is unlikely to succeed in my view. It certainly isn't something to be conducted lightly. However, if you are of the attitude that this is something that is important to you - to know the truth and speak with God - then you must be as Gautama and immovable in that belief. Follow that example and be dedicated in believing in the Lord and serving your fellow man. After all, Gautama didn't just try or attempt to discover the truth for a day, a month or a year. He vowed to sit under the Bodhi tree and never to arise UNTIL he had found the truth.
Now, this may not be what you wish to do and you may not believe in such things including the Lord. However, there is still a way to speak with the Lord. I would encourage you to live a good honest life in service and kindness to others and with an openness and dedication to the truth. When the Lord wishes to speak with you, he will. I would encourage you to meditate (a good practice to relieve stress no matter your beliefs) and ask the Lord each day to speak with you. It can not hurt since it demonstrates dedication and determination on your part. But, ultimately it is up to you; and between you and the Lord.
Tobin, thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't know if I have the resolve to do as Gautama did, but striving to live a life of service and kindness and searching for truth is something I can get behind.
I enjoy reading your posts. You provide a very unique and interesting perspective on these topics, and I appreciate you putting yourself out there even when you get a lot of pushback.
Tobin wrote:... After all, Gautama didn't just try or attempt to discover the truth for a day, a month or a year. He vowed to sit under the Bodhi tree and never to arise UNTIL he had found the truth.
...
Tobin, thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't know if I have the resolve to do as Gautama did, but striving to live a life of service and kindness and searching for truth is something I can get behind.
I enjoy reading your posts. You provide a very unique and interesting perspective on these topics, and I appreciate you putting yourself out there even when you get a lot of pushback.
Umm ... Gautama Siddhartha, the founder of Buddhism, was not trying to talk to a deity in Tobin's sense of the word. Nor did he ever say that a deity in the Abrahamic sense of the word (which seems to be Tobin's) had talked to him.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:Umm ... Gautama Siddhartha, the founder of Buddhism, was not trying to talk to a deity in Tobin's sense of the word. Nor did he ever say that a deity in the Abrahamic sense of the word (which seems to be Tobin's) had talked to him.
I can't say what Tobin really meant, but I took the Gautama reference as a metaphor, not a literal prescription of "do X, and Y will happen."
Chap wrote:Umm ... Gautama Siddhartha, the founder of Buddhism, was not trying to talk to a deity in Tobin's sense of the word. Nor did he ever say that a deity in the Abrahamic sense of the word (which seems to be Tobin's) had talked to him.
I can't say what Tobin really meant, but I took the Gautama reference as a metaphor, not a literal prescription of "do X, and Y will happen."
I admire the Buddhist concepts - particularly that of the dedication and determination of the yogis, Gautama being a good example.
Buddhism is founded on three traditions (the Three Jewels): the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. With a little thought, you can apply exactly the same traditions to Mormonism. The Buddha (enlightment comes from speaking with and knowing the mind of God - you literally become an "awakened one"), the Dharma (the teachings are the Gospel), and the Sangha (the community is the Church).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: ... enlightenment comes from speaking with and knowing the mind of God ...
This is off-topic, but the idea that enlightenment comes from being told what some other entity thinks does not seem to me very Buddhist at all.
But who cares what I think?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
