That is between them and God. You don't believe someone is a prophet of God because they say so. Anyone can pretend to be a prophet of God. You believe them because they are telling the truth and God confirms it. The prophets and scriptures are to lead the listener/reader to God and from there you are to get inspired and be lead.
Does this apply to you too, Tobin?
How would we know if your experiences are true?
Tobin wrote:Yes, speak with God.
How many times has 'God' spoken to Tobin, I wonder? The fact that he ends up prescribing a chat with this entity as the answer to pretty well every question suggests that he thinks this is not too hard to arrange.
So how many times has Tobin spoken with 'God'? Twenty times? Five times? Twice? Once?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:How many times has 'God' spoken to Tobin, I wonder? The fact that he ends up prescribing a chat with this entity as the answer to pretty well every question suggests that he thinks this is not too hard to arrange.
So how many times has Tobin spoken with 'God'? Twenty times? Five times? Twice? Once?
Good question. Personally, I don't believe anyone talks with God. Evidently Tobin believes he does. I would love to hear the details of those conversations. I'm not sure Tobin will provide those.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:...Personally, I don't believe anyone talks with God.
Nor do I, but perhaps for reasons different from your own.
Quasimodo wrote:Evidently Tobin believes he does. I would love to hear the details of those conversations. I'm not sure Tobin will provide those.
Gracious! I would not myself dream of seeking to violate the privilege accorded to deity-believer communications. I am just asking how many times such communications have occurred involving Tobin.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:How many times has 'God' spoken to Tobin, I wonder? The fact that he ends up prescribing a chat with this entity as the answer to pretty well every question suggests that he thinks this is not too hard to arrange.
So how many times has Tobin spoken with 'God'? Twenty times? Five times? Twice? Once?
Good question. Personally, I don't believe anyone talks with God. Evidently Tobin believes he does. I would love to hear the details of those conversations. I'm not sure Tobin will provide those.
It's a ludicrous question. Things like that don't happen every day.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Chap wrote:How many times has 'God' spoken to Tobin, I wonder? The fact that he ends up prescribing a chat with this entity as the answer to pretty well every question suggests that he thinks this is not too hard to arrange.
So how many times has Tobin spoken with 'God'? Twenty times? Five times? Twice? Once?
Tobin wrote:It's a ludicrous question. Things like that don't happen every day.
No, it's a perfectly reasonable question. Or are you trying to suggest that any answer other than 'just once' is prima facie so unlikely as to be obviously improbable? How are we supposed to know that? I assure you that you are the only person I have ever met outside a clinical context who ever claimed to have spoken with a deity.
So what is the answer?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Quasimodo wrote:Good question. Personally, I don't believe anyone talks with God. Evidently Tobin believes he does. I would love to hear the details of those conversations. I'm not sure Tobin will provide those.
Yeah, suddenly the golden plates and all that stuff is unimportant when it comes to the conversation of TOBIN'S special little experience he had with voices and all that. Sure, he probably her a voice and a few words and it told him to do something. It really impressed him and he obeyed and is using that as his foundation to his testimony. If it wasn't for that special little talking experience he had with God (his own mind) he'd have no problem seeing the Book of Abraham for the fraud it is. He is allowing that voice he heard in his head to screw with his better judgement.
Tobin wrote:It's a ludicrous question. Things like that don't happen every day.
No, it's a perfectly reasonable question. Or are you trying to suggest that any answer other than 'just once' is prima facie so unlikely as to be obviously improbable? How are we supposed to know that? I assure you that you are the only person I have ever met outside a clinical context who ever claimed to have spoken with a deity.
So what is the answer?
Believe me. It is a ludicrous question. It is like asking how many pre-cambrian chickens does it take to disprove evolution.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.
You've only responded to my question multiple times without answering it to paint the ruse that you have acknowledged historical fact. This is what I want you to comment on specifically:
"... with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. - a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 236).
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
Themis wrote:many members are open minded enough to realize their faith could be wrong. This is why this issue is a major one for the church.
I don't think you've connected the dots. It's not really a major issue for the Church.
Yes it is a major issue with the LDS church. This is why they hide the evidence along with Joseph Smith's seer stones.
stemelbow wrote: And it has nothing to do with whether there are many members who are open minded enough to realize their faith could be wrong, afterall I am open minded enough to realize that.
I disagree, as an "open-minded" person answers questions based on the facts. You parrot what you're told to believe and minimize the truth in order to discount it. If you were honest, you'd acknowledge Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Egyptian papyri and got it all wrong, because that's what happened.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
Quasimodo wrote:Good question. Personally, I don't believe anyone talks with God. Evidently Tobin believes he does. I would love to hear the details of those conversations. I'm not sure Tobin will provide those.
Shulem wrote:Yeah, suddenly the golden plates and all that stuff is unimportant when it comes to the conversation of TOBIN'S special little experience he had with voices and all that. Sure, he probably her a voice and a few words and it told him to do something. It really impressed him and he obeyed and is using that as his foundation to his testimony. If it wasn't for that special little talking experience he had with God (his own mind) he'd have no problem seeing the Book of Abraham for the fraud it is. He is allowing that voice he heard in his head to screw with his better judgement.
Paul O
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
