With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in staying

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _why me »

cwald wrote:
I don't have to take your s*** over here. Goodnight.


I was rather nice to you over there. I told you that you were new to MDD and that with time, your debating skills would improve. I also told you that your skin will get tougher and you will be sparring with the best of them.

Why be angry with me?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:
Cylon wrote:
Wow. You take one little comment where you know nothing about the context, and since you don't understand it, you immediately assume that he can't be telling the truth. Classy.


Cwald went to church and was treated nicely by the members last sunday. So, I really don't understand how one can leave a church because of one's immediate family not understanding his inactivity when the members are nice to him.

It is a little confusing.


Well, see, Why Me, to some people, Mormonism is a religion, not just a social group. And when those kinds of people sincerely believe that the Church is true, and then find out that the truth claims of the LDS Church cannot be supported by fact or reason, it sort of diminishes their interest in maintaining loyalty to the organization.

Hare Krishnas are generally very nice people, Why Me. I'm totally serious; they are. So why don't you join their religion and pledge your devotion to Krishna? People being nice to you makes their religious dogma true, right?
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _Chap »

why me wrote:
Cylon wrote:
Wow. You take one little comment where you know nothing about the context, and since you don't understand it, you immediately assume that he can't be telling the truth. Classy.


Cwald went to church and was treated nicely by the members last sunday. So, I really don't understand how one can leave a church because of one's immediate family not understanding his inactivity when the members are nice to him.

It is a little confusing.
Darth J wrote:
Well, see, Why Me, to some people, Mormonism is a religion, not just a social group. And when those kinds of people sincerely believe that the Church is true, and then find out that the truth claims of the LDS Church cannot be supported by fact or reason, it sort of diminishes their interest in maintaining loyalty to the organization.

Hare Krishnas are generally very nice people, Why Me. I'm totally serious; they are. So why don't you join their religion and pledge your devotion to Krishna? People being nice to you makes their religious dogma true, right?


And what is more, the Bhagavad Gita has never been proved false. There may be a few bitter ex-Krishnites on some message boards, but they are denying the spiritual witness they received and left because they couldn't meet the high standards of the Church.

Do you recognise the bitter tone of the apostate, whyme?

... as the time came when I become more determined to leave the community a former member of our monastery was beginning to make movements to again take up the practice of Krishna consciousness. I can't recall if I told the story already, but one day I was on Google Chat, and he started to talk to me about how he was preparing to meet up with our Guru to discuss things. I knew he was hoping for my encouragement, and I felt such heavy irony in the fact that I was only days away from leaving Krishna consciousness behind just as he was entering again.

We've never really discussed his original reasons for leaving Krishna consciousness, personally I'm not willing to speculate. But I what I can say is that the community reacts in a very specific way whenever devotees do leave the community. How they react is that they construct their own explanations as to why devotees have left. This serves to shift any possible blame away from the pristine and amazing leadership, camaraderie, facility and training which they have been offered, and instead places the blame 100% on the shoulders of the person exiting the community. In every case that I witnessed of a person leaving the Krishna consciousness community this is exactly the response I have witnessed. And this served as a constant retaining mechanism for the community.

To begin with, it serves to dismiss any claims brought by an exiting devotee. They weren't honest about their motives, they weren't willing to work on themselves, they hide aspects of their lives, and this resulted in them leaving. As a result, whatever statements they have to make about their experience within the community is likely fictional, a creation of their own minds, bewildered by illusion. This also serves to contain the impacts of those who leave. Their departure can now easily be explained and dismissed without further investigation. And finally, it serves to create a sense of fear amongst the community, as devotees worry "I wonder what they would say about me if I left?"


Or maybe all religions of a certain type use the same tactics to discourage members leaving?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _Darth J »

cwald wrote:
why me wrote:What church is relevant for this generation? I see none. This generation wishes to live life without restraints. I see no church advocating this. What reforms do you want the LDS church to make for it to be relevant to you and your generation? And how did you become the spokesperson for your generation when it comes to the LDS church?


I don't have to take your crap over here. Goodnight.


Cwald, you need to understand that on Why Me's home planet, they do not readily grasp concepts like empathy or reasonableness. Although they managed to disguise him pretty well in a human skin suit, his alien, reptilian origins still betray themselves in his posts. It's one of the hazards of being sent to our world in attempt to study and blend in with human beings.
_LDSToronto
_Emeritus
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:11 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _LDSToronto »

why me wrote:
cwald wrote:

I don't know where we will be a year from now. I actually ( because I am stubborn and stupid) hold out faith that the church will reform and become relevant to our generation.


What church is relevant for this generation? I see none. This generation wishes to live life without restraints. I see no church advocating this. What reforms do you want the LDS church to make for it to be relevant to you and your generation? And how did you become the spokesperson for your generation when it comes to the LDS church?


Says the King of the Mormon Lay.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_Tator
_Emeritus
Posts: 3088
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:15 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _Tator »

cwald welcome to the board.

Lots of people have "why me" on ignore I don't because I like to see his stupidity in action. He never fails me. Plus if you ever have any questions about porn "why me" is an expert. He can read minds and knows what people believe and think and can divine things no one else can. He is truly amazing. He has tons of advice for everyone but can't live it for himself. I can go on and on but I think you already know the real "why me" from the other board.

Glad to have you here.
a.k.a. Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
_zeezrom
_Emeritus
Posts: 11938
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _zeezrom »

John has a career path in which his Mormon interest makes sense. For many people, it is easier to stay involved. Less discord with those you are close to. Less uncertainty.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _Drifting »

I think John Dehlin is a faithful man who believes in influencing change for the better of the organization that facilitates his religious beliefs from within. (Shades, I know I should have some punctuation in here somewhere...)

It seems he is more successful in that aim than any Mopologist dare dream.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _DarkHelmet »

why me wrote:Let me put it this way: if an inactive member was taking off the roles and then one day this inactive person comes back to church, what should happen?


Just a thought. Maybe they could put the person's name back on the rolls. This isn't rocket science.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Cylon
_Emeritus
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:08 am

Re: With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in sta

Post by _Cylon »

why me wrote:
Cylon wrote:
Wow. You take one little comment where you know nothing about the context, and since you don't understand it, you immediately assume that he can't be telling the truth. Classy.


Cwald went to church and was treated nicely by the members last sunday. So, I really don't understand how one can leave a church because of one's immediate family not understanding his inactivity when the members are nice to him.

It is a little confusing.


No, you don't understand, because there's a lot more to the story that you don't know. Instead of asking him if there was something you were missing, you jumped straight to questioning his motives and assuming he is a liar. Cwald's story makes perfect sense once you hear all of it, but it's his story to tell, and I doubt he'll give you the time of day now.
Post Reply