Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Tobin]

I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.

You've only responded to my question multiple times without answering it to paint the ruse that you have acknowledged historical fact. This is what I want you to comment on specifically:

"... with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. - a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 236).

Again, the same answer. You can ask me the same question a million times. It will remain the same answer. It won't change the millionth and one time you ask.

[_Chap]

I asked how many times Tobin had talked with 'God'. The dialogue continued:

It's a ludicrous question. Things like that don't happen every day.

No, it's a perfectly reasonable question. Or are you trying to suggest that any answer other than 'just once' is prima facie so unlikely as to be obviously improbable? How are we supposed to know that? I assure you that you are the only person I have ever met outside a clinical context who ever claimed to have spoken with a deity.

So what is the answer?

Believe me. It is a ludicrous question. It is like asking how many pre-cambrian chickens does it take to disprove evolution.

No it isn't. I am asking nothing of the kind. I just want to know how many times a certain event has happened in your life. A rough answer will do. And you refuse to say.

[_Themis]

No it isn't. I am asking nothing of the kind. I just want to know how many times a certain event has happened in your life. A rough answer will do. And you refuse to say.

The same reason he won't answer questions about the catalyst theory. It would make him look bad. by the way I believe the answer is 1 based on his posts when he first arrived. It's why he doesn't like it when I bring up seeking God never worked for him so he really can't know it will work for anyone else.

[_Themis]

Good question. Personally, I don't believe anyone talks with God. Evidently Tobin believes he does. I would love to hear the details of those conversations. I'm not sure Tobin will provide those.

Yeah, suddenly the golden plates and all that stuff is unimportant when it comes to the conversation of TOBIN'S special little experience he had with voices and all that. Sure, he probably her a voice and a few words and it told him to do something. It really impressed him and he obeyed and is using that as his foundation to his testimony. If it wasn't for that special little talking experience he had with God (his own mind) he'd have no problem seeing the Book of Abraham for the fraud it is. He is allowing that voice he heard in his head to screw with his better judgement.

Paul O

Precisely why he avoids answering questions regarding things like the catalyst theory.

[_Drifting]

You said the origins of the stories in the book of Abraham were unimportant so long as people found spiritual upliftment from them (I think that's what you said.

Paul H Dunn made up stories which people found spiritually uplifting despite their origins.

No. YOu missed my point. I didn't say that.

Here is what you said:

I just wonder, what's the point of trying to change Mormon's minds at all? The criticisms present possibilities extant faith. Faith presents an unlikely possibility that people just go with because in their minds, faith is evidence. They simply don't need to know how the Book of Abraham came about. Their lives are directed differently. It has nothing to do with the papyri not having anything about Abraham on them, nor whether the question of what is missing could possibly include writings about Abraham. It doesn't matter. What matters is, is there faith and Holy Inspiration involved in their lives.

No doubt critics who seek to change Mormon's minds will always have success but the majority of Mormons will easily see the such critics are missing the boat, and have no desire to understand where the Mormons they go after are coming from.

Please explain how I missed your point?

[_Chap]

No it isn't. I am asking nothing of the kind. I just want to know how many times a certain event has happened in your life. A rough answer will do. And you refuse to say.

The same reason he won't answer questions about the catalyst theory. It would make him look bad. by the way I believe the answer is 1 based on his posts when he first arrived. It's why he doesn't like it when I bring up seeking God never worked for him so he really can't know it will work for anyone else.

You are, I think, right:

Back in Febuary we got this:

viewtopic.php?p=551899#p551899

Oh my, Tobin! The Lord visited you and others and chastised you?! I am astounded. Please, tell me more.

This differs from my own visitation. I was told some things that I had never before heard, new knowledge, and was given a promise that has come true to a large degree.

H.

I'll just say I was in a dark place. I was not a good person and doing things in retro-spect I should not have been doing. I was in a locked apartment up to no good with someone else when a being physically entered the room and basically let us have it. We were both in shock and shaking. Even now (and I can see it clearly in my mind), I get chills. I can see the expression on the other person's face and we were both shaken to our core.

Looks like Tobin saw his deity just the once, and may even want it to stay that way. Given that his visitation apparently took the form of a divine carpeting while he was up to no good, it seems odd that he recommends the rest of us to be good as we can in order to have a chance of undergoing our own divine visitation.

[Guest]

No it isn't. I am asking nothing of the kind. I just want to know how many times a certain event has happened in your life. A rough answer will do. And you refuse to say.

If your question is, have I seen God? The answer is yes. How many other times or what other experiences I have had are none of your business. If I wish to share them, I will.

[_Tobin]

Precisely why he avoids answering questions regarding things like the catalyst theory.

I have answered all your questions. Pretending otherwise does not do you any credit.

[_Drifting]

No it isn't. I am asking nothing of the kind. I just want to know how many times a certain event has happened in your life. A rough answer will do. And you refuse to say.

If your question is, have you seen God? The answer is yes. How many other times or what other experiences I have had are none of your business. If I wish to share them, I will.

Quite Tobin,

Now...what did he look and sound like?

[_Tobin]

If your question is, have you seen God? The answer is yes. How many other times or what other experiences I have had are none of your business. If I wish to share them, I will.

Quite Tobin, Now...what did he look and sound like?

If I wish to share the details, I will. It is sufficient for me that I know there is a God and that is the basis for my assertions that the scriptures and prophets are correct in stating there is a God.