Tobin wrote:That is just more dissembling and misrepresentations.
Not at all. Your only two answers were Joseph got it wrong, and Joseph can't read Egyptian. Neither answers were to any question any asked, but you used them to avoid the real questions you can't answer.
Tobin wrote:That is just more dissembling and misrepresentations.
Not at all. Your only two answers were Joseph got it wrong, and Joseph can't read Egyptian. Neither answers were to any question any asked, but you used them to avoid the real questions you can't answer.
Not quite. In addition to your dissembling and misrepresentations, I'm going to add that you have selective memory. I repeatedly told you that Joseph Smith wasn't God's sock puppet and directly answered all your other non-sense questions at least two or more times.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Not quite. In addition to your dissembling and misrepresentations, I'm going to add that you have selective memory. I repeatedly told that Joseph Smith wasn't God's sock puppet and directly answered all your other non-sense questions at least two or more times.
And it is the same dodge. You create arguments no one is making and hope it will distract from the real questions you can't answer.
Tobin wrote:Not quite. In addition to your dissembling and misrepresentations, I'm going to add that you have selective memory. I repeatedly told that Joseph Smith wasn't God's sock puppet and directly answered all your other non-sense questions at least two or more times.
And it is the same dodge. You create arguments no one is making and hope it will distract from the real questions you can't answer.
It isn't a dodge. It directly challenges the premise upon which many of your questions are based. You fail again and again to see that your "questions" are nothing more than the assertion that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. And I pointed that out to you repeatedly.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:It isn't a dodge. It directly challenges the premise upon which many of your questions are based. You fail again and again to see that your "questions" are nothing more than the assertion that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. And I pointed that out to you repeatedly.
It is. No one is suggesting Joseph is God's sock puppet. It is a dodge of the real questions of how Joseph could be so stupid to make things up when he is supposed to be accessing God all the time. It doesn't answer how God is going to go along with this mess that would be an obvious mistake with very negative consequences. Wouldn't God know what might happen to member's later on when you are creating evidence against your own claims. These are some obvious problems with the Catalyst theory. A theory mind you that is totally made up without any evidence at all other then a desperate need to have something. It doesn't answer the problems with the explanations that are tailor made for the Egyptian facsimiles, but then your responses may have said they should be taken out. At least now some of the Book of Abraham is gone.
Tobin wrote:It isn't a dodge. It directly challenges the premise upon which many of your questions are based. You fail again and again to see that your "questions" are nothing more than the assertion that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. And I pointed that out to you repeatedly.
It is. No one is suggesting Joseph is God's sock puppet. It is a dodge of the real questions of how Joseph could be so stupid to make things up when he is supposed to be accessing God all the time. It doesn't answer how God is going to go along with this mess that would be an obvious mistake with very negative consequences. Wouldn't God know what might happen to member's later on when you are creating evidence against your own claims. These are some obvious problems with the Catalyst theory. A theory mind you that is totally made up without any evidence at all other then a desperate need to have something. It doesn't answer the problems with the explanations that are tailor made for the Egyptian facsimiles, but then your responses may have said they should be taken out. At least now some of the Book of Abraham is gone.
Actually, you are making exactly the assertion that Joseph Smith was (or should have been) God's sock puppet and are simply incapable of acknowledging that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Your assertion is Joseph Smith must have done exactly what God wanted him to do, perfectly and without error. Otherwise, how could he have been so stupid as to be human and fallible?
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Actually, you are making exactly the assertion that Joseph Smith was (or should have been) God's sock puppet and are simply incapable of acknowledging that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Your assertion is Joseph Smith must have done exactly what God wanted him to do, perfectly and without error. Otherwise, how could he have been so stupid as to be human and fallible?
Another straw-man. I am wondering why Joseph would make things up even though he is in contact with God all the time. You have avoided this question again and again. He would have to be very stupid to not know he can't read Egyptian and think he can get it right, and then think not to ask God about it. Joseph just didn't make up a line about it, but went to great lengths over years about it being Abraham's record. We both know it has never been about Joseph having to be perfect.
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.
Of course you won't think God is very concerned with this. You need this since it is all you have. I see major problems with God not correcting Joseph, and when he doesn't he is involved in deception that will lead people to reasonably conclude the Book of Abraham is made up. The responsibility is now on God for being an idiot. If God can communicate so much detailed information to Joseph he could also communicate something of vital importance as this. You can't have that since you need something.
The catalyst theory has Joseph and God being the dumb and dumber.
Tobin wrote:Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.
Classic apologetics. When Joseph Smith is caught in a lie about The Book of Abrham translation, it's our fault if we don't believe. Also apparently God just doesn't care that he created a situation where his prophet comes off looking like a fraud. Really it's one thing to have faith in the abcense of evidence, and quite another to have faith inspite of the evidence.
Tobin wrote:Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.
Classic apologetics. When Joseph Smith is caught in a lie about The Book of Abrham translation, it's our fault if we don't believe. Also apparently God just doesn't care that he created a situation where his prophet comes off looking like a fraud. Really it's one thing to have faith in the abcense of evidence, and quite another to have faith inspite of the evidence.