With all due respect to Dehlin, what is the point in staying

[Guest]

I don't think that Joseph's polygamy was a big secret. He would usually ask the family members of the women involved for permission. That would include a lot of people knowing about the practice. Also, when his plural wives died and if they went west after his murder, their tombstone usually had the last name of Smith chiseled into them. However, given the persecution the saints were already experiencing and had experienced, the practice did have to be kept away from the general non-member public surrounding the Mormon community.

I think Joseph Smith wanted to keep it a secret. He denied the practice all the way to his death:

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this...I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411) (From a sermon in 1844)

If he had been more open about the topic during his life maybe there would be less speclation about it.

[_DarkHelmet]

The interesting thing about Mormonism (and maybe all religions are like this) is members are not truly happy unless their loved ones are also active, believing members. It is not a personal religion, it is a family religion. You can't find peace and happiness in Mormonism if your family doesn't also believe in it. So when you leave the church, it is not a personal decision. Members don't wish you the best when you leave because, although you feel you have made a personal decision that is your own personal business, the decision actually causes pain to others. It is like you are plugged into a machine, and when you disconnect yourself from the machine, everyone around you is affected. It makes no logical sense that your happiness depends on the choices other people make on how they want to live their lives, but that is how Mormonism is set up, and that is why it is so difficult to leave. There is tremendous guilt associated with leaving the church because you hurt so many people.

[_Cylon]

While I’m an atheist and think it is the best position, a lot of people who leave the church tend to skip any serious study of other faith traditions and become the worse for it.

I love this. It takes a truly open mind to advocate examining all positions instead of just arguing your own. I've always been suspicious of those who say "don't even consider such and such, it's evil to even listen to them." If something is false, it will become evident upon examination, so why fear it?

[_cwald]

... but that is how Mormonism is set up, and that is why it is so difficult to leave. There is tremendous guilt associated with leaving the church because you hurt so many people.

Yep. Absolutely. It's just not a black and white issue.

[_Cylon]

I do believe in "prophets"...Martin Luther, MLK, 14th Dalia Lama, Tolkien, etc etc...perhaps Smith...perhaps even Urchdorf? I don't' know. I figure that I can get just as much "revelation" as the next the guy...just never really understood the LDS idea that I have to go through their priesthood to get to god. Doesn't make sense to me.

Sounds like you and Wayfarer over at NOM need to start a congregation! I'll volunteer to pass the sacrament, as long as we can use cupcakes and Mountain Dew instead of stale bread and tap water.

[_MrStakhanovite]

While I’m an atheist and think it is the best position…

If you would be willing, what do you mean by this?

I think the position of atheism over and against classical theism (and open theism, deism, pantheism, etc) is the most rational and fulfilling worldview to be had, I acknowledge that a lot of well trained theists (and others) would beg to differ with me. Since I’m not an evangelist with a burning need to change people’s minds, I concern myself with how people act and the quality of their inner lives instead. I think the deeper people think about all the issues surrounding religion and philosophy, the better off we all are.

[_why me]

cwald welcome to the board.

Lots of people have "why me" on ignore I don't because I like to see his stupidity in action. He never fails me. Plus if you ever have any questions about porn "why me" is an expert. He can read minds and knows what people believe and think and can divine things no one else can. He is truly amazing. He has tons of advice for everyone but can't live it for himself. I can go on and on but I think you already know the real "why me" from the other board.

Glad to have you here.

I have known you for a long time tator head. I always enjoy your humor. Hopefully the spuds are keeping you happy this summer.

[_why me]

Says the King of the Mormon Lay.

H.

i was ahead of my time. I think that many young adult Mormons are having Mormon lays these days. I went to my stake conference and I noticed that the young adult women were dressing quite sexy. I saw short skirts, revealing blouses, tight dresses and sleeveless tops. Back in my day, the young ladies were more modest and left it up to the young guys imagination.

[_Ceeboo]

I think the position of atheism over and against classical theism (and open theism, deism, pantheism, etc) is the most rational and fulfilling worldview to be had, I acknowledge that a lot of well trained theists (and others) would beg to differ with me. Since I’m not an evangelist with a burning need to change people’s minds, I concern myself with how people act and the quality of their inner lives instead. I think the deeper people think about all the issues surrounding religion and philosophy, the better off we all are.

Hey again, Stak

Thanks for the extremely rational and deeply fullfilling reply.

Just kidding, friend. I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate.


Peace,
Ceeboo

[_why me]

I think Joseph Smith wanted to keep it a secret. He denied the practice all the way to his death:

If he had been more open about the topic during his life maybe there would be less speclation about it.

As I said, he would usually ask a family member if it were okay to marry the relative. And then we have his other wives getting in on the act too by asking the woman involved. It had to be a pretty tight lip ship to keep it away from the membership. Then, we had his plural wives grieving with emma on the day of the funeral. I think that the Mormons needed to say one thing in public and another thing in private. It was a life or death situation.