Lest Ye Celebrate Too Heartily....

[_Racer]

Being strong is not the same as being a braggart and a bully. The latter are characteristic of weakness, as is the apologetic furor over the recent developments at the Maxwell Institute. There are plenty of temper tantrums and gnashing of teeth; there is not a lot of adult behavior.

It's funny how you pick on "mopologists" for "temper tantrums", "gnashing of teeth", "not a lot of adult behavior", being "braggarts and bullies", yet don't look at your own behaviour, and the behaviour of many here. Ridicule and mockery are the order of the day - and you say nothing about them. You're quite okay calling a Mormon defender a "dipstick", and ranting and raving how "evil" "mopologists" are, and your totally flimsy excuse will be, as usual, "it's only a message board". We have "willpologists", "peterpologists", "DCP-ites", "DCP posse", and on and on it goes, and you're perfectly fine with that?

I'm not going to engage you much more (or the mockers), and I know it must be boring to many. So I'll leave you free to rave and rant here on your "home board","like an adult", if that makes you feel better. The last thing I have to say is that DCP's assessment of you was 100% spot on.

If things are going to change, the change has to work both ways (individually and collectively), and you should encourage the civility you so yearn for at the MI and "mopologists".

I'll let you have the last word.

I hope I am not speaking out of place since you are directing your comments at Kishkumen, but I wanted offer my observation. The difference between the "temper tantrums", "gnashing of teeth", "not a lot of adult behavior", and etc of many people on this board is that none of us are financially remunerated for talking crap, and most of us are not masquerading our behavior as being high academia and scholarship like DCP and his fellow mopologists. We are a bunch of average Joe's. I don't believe any of us on this board are being paid to bully, smear, propagandize, and misdirect by a fraudulent billion dollar corporation posing as a religion. No matter how flimsy you think it is, this is only a message board. The collateral damage caused by DCP and his ilk is way more than will ever be caused by this insignificant board.

[_RayAgostini]

Racer,

You may need to do some post editing (okay, I see you just did). As for your claim that "this is just a message board full of average Joes", you might want to consider this thread:

What Is Your Level of Education?.

But I can fully understand why you might think this board is just "full of average Joes".

[_Racer]

Oh I have no doubt there are highly educated people on this board. In fact, I think those on this board who recognize Mormonism for what it truly is are very bright indeed. I myself have a Masters Degree from a highly prestigious university and I have a fat student loan that will forever remind me of that degree. But again I am an average Joe in the sense that I am not paid, nor does my career involve a highly visual position by a large church or University that depends on me defending pseudo science. My rantings along with others on this board are not highly visible and don't affect our professional reputations.

However, if I were to be highly visible on forums and organizations related to my chosen career path, and I behaved like DCP and the other professional mopologists, I would most likely be heavily scrutinized or mocked, and maybe even dismissed by my superiors. But, since I don't behave like that in my given career path, or publish media and employ other methods to publicly tarnish and attack other people's reputations, I remain credible in my line of work.

Maybe the Average Joe term was not appropriate to the point I was trying to make. But again, this is simply a message board, not a spin operation funded by a billion dollar corp.

[_RayAgostini]

Oh I have no doubt there are highly educated people on this board. In fact, I think those on this board who recognize Mormonism for what it truly is are very bright indeed. I myself have a Masters Degree from a highly prestigious university and I have a fat student loan that will forever remind me of that degree. But again I am an average Joe in the sense that I am not paid, nor does my career involve a highly visual position by a large church or University that depends on me defending pseudo science.

My pointing out the education level on MDB isn't a reflection of the "smartness" or wisdom of posters here, only that for such "educated" people, they should know better than to make a message board an excuse to act like "average Joes", or more colloquially, "asses".

As for your reference to "pseudo-science", seems like you might fit in nicely:

Criticism of the term.

Maybe the Average Joe term was not appropriate to the point I was trying to make. But again, this is simply a message board...

So if "mopologists" went on message boards, and slammed critics to kingdom COME - that's okay? Cool.

Would it surprise you to learn that this is where most of the criticisms of DCP arise from, and not what he's actually written and published in hardcopy, for instance Offenders For A Word? You go ahead and do a survey here of how many have read that book. They have judged the man on what he posts on message boards - NOT what he's published in hardcopy.

Nevertheless, go ahead and have a good puke at the hypocrisy. I'd dare anyone, on this board, to find any DCP post archived here, which calls any critic a "dipstick". Find one.

[_moksha]

For those who are declaring total victory over Dr. Peterson and the Mopologists, it may be useful to pause for a moment of reflection ...

I’ve never quite been able to lose sight of the fact, since then, that, in order for somebody to win, somebody else, very commonly, has to lose. And that tempers the thrill of victory very substantially.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... efeat.html

What a wise insight by Dr. Peterson and a magnanimous gesture by Dr. Scratch. It speaks well of us not to be swept up in the dark spirit of schadenfreude and to keep our humanity empathetic to the sorrow of others.

[_Racer]

As for your reference to "pseudo-science", seems like you might fit in nicely:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Criticism_of_the_term]

What criticism? Based on your wikipedia link we seem to have the same understanding of the term pseudo science. Here is the opening paragraph:
Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.[1] Pseudoscience is often characterized by the use of vague, exaggerated or unprovable claims, an over-reliance on confirmation rather than rigorous attempts at refutation, a lack of openness to evaluation by other experts, and a general absence of systematic processes to rationally develop theories.

I believe the majority of archeological and anthropological claims and theories made by BYU or Mormon scholars on the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham papyri are not in line with 99.9% of the rest of the scientific community and would be considered pseudo science. Show me all the non-Mormon scientists, or organization who says who says: "Hold on a minute... The Mormon scholars are on to something here..." The spiritual and faith based claims of the LDS church do not fall under the pseudo science category, but the archeological/anthropological ones most certainly do. I didn't create the rules on this, so you will have to take it up with the greater scientific community if you want the Book of Mormon archeology stuff to be taken seriously.

So if "mopologists" went on message boards, and slammed critics to kingdom COME - that's okay? Cool.

It appears to be okay from what I have read on sites like MD&D as well as papers mopologists have written where they spend more energy slamming the critics instead of the critic's message. But right now they seem more preoccupied with publicly slamming their own organizations and members within their apologetic community including their managers and employer.

Would it surprise you to learn that this is where most of the criticisms of DCP arise from, and not what he's actually written and published in hardcopy, for instance Offenders For A Word? You go ahead and do a survey here of how many have read that book. They have judged the man on what he posts on message boards - NOT what he's published in hardcopy.

What does it matter if its in hardcopy or not? If he says things in hardcopy or online that people disagree with, he will be open to criticism. If he acts like a brat he will probably be treated like a brat. There are many mopologists that don't receive the ire that DCP does because they don't kick the hornet's nest, instead they use tact, and don't come off smug and condescending.

Just by reading the summary of the book at Amazon, I can tell you I won't read his book. I have read similar writings along the same vein before, so I can safely assume I already know what it's about. http://www.amazon.com/Offenders-Word-Da ... for+a+word.

Another book to reveal the secret tactics of anti-Mormons. Sigh... This is boring. There really is no such thing as anti Mormons in the "bogey man" sense that you folks like to create.

1. You have a small percentage of whack job evangelicals and Ed Decker types who want to argue whose Jesus is the real Jesus and call Mormons a cult. These folks actually do distort some of Mormon history, but their intended audience really isn't Mormon, and most people know they are whack jobs. I guess you could call these anti- Mormons. Usually the Mormons and the Evs both have an infinite supply of Bible versus that tend to prove each other's point, so it just keeps going round and round.

2. You have a group of people who lay out the church's complete history for all to see, and your leadership doesn't like it because it doesn't match up with the pretty "faith promoting" picture they have been falsely painting in the CES program, lesson manuals, church magazines and etc. Wasn't it Pres Packer who said "Not all truths are useful?" So instead, they seek to vilify those who bring attention to the history and accuse them of being enemies when all the so called "enemies" simply came to the conclusion that Mormonism isn't what it claims to be and they share that information so others can see the whole 360 degree picture and make an educated decision about Mormonism without having pertinent information withheld from them on some silly "Milk before Meat" metaphor.

So, the LDS brass employ spin doctors in the guise of scholars to try and explain away money digging, 4 separate first vision accounts, peep stones, Book of Mormon anachronisms, Joseph Smith marrying teens and other's wives, Kirtland banking, lies about the practice of polygamy,Adam-God, false translations of Book of Abraham papyri, DNA, racism, MMM, Hofmann, and any other myriad of happenings in the church's history that would cause one to reconsider it's claims. They never take the Occam's razor approach by offering the simplest explanation. No. Instead they offer a bunch of crazy long winded answers mired in circular logic and mental gymnastics. To top it off, they write books with foreboding titles like "Offenders For a Word". When really the books should be titled: "People who read Mormon History and Interpret it Differently Than Mainstream Mormons." But that doesn't elicit the scare tactics the church wants to employ. They would rather keep the membership living in fear falsely believing that there is some secret Satanic cabal of people who "lie in wait to deceive" and want to destroy you! MUHAAHAHAAHAHA!

Nevertheless, go ahead and have a good puke at the hypocrisy. I'd dare anyone, on this board, to find any DCP post archived here, which calls any critic a "dipstick". Find one.

I haven't been on this board long enough to know whether DCP has an archive here where he calls a critic a "dipstick". He probably doesn't since he doesn't have a home field advantage and we are not is intended audience. However, I dare you to mosey on over to another board like MDD and find a DCP post where he calls someone on this board a "dipstick" or something like unto it.

Didn't you say a few posts ago that you were done posting on this thread?

[_RayAgostini]

Didn't you say a few posts ago that you were done posting on this thread?

If I said that, anywhere on this thread, I'll grant your "comprehension" of the other things I've posted.

Really, you bore me, but you fit in here very well. Your posts could easily be cut-and-paste from the thousands of other posts that have been done over the years, which is why I, for the most part, don't bother much with boards anymore. DCP learned his lesson about this board ages ago, but unfortunately, I haven't.

It gets tiring, very tiring, going over the same things again and again, and I don't have much energy left.

Are you happy being in, or out of the Church? Are you happy believing it's a delusion? Are you happy that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and Mormonism a delusion? Are you happy that it's all a sham and a fraud?

Then go your way, and whine no more. Eat, drink and be merry, and don't waste a second of it, for tomorrow you die.

Have a good night.

[_why me]

But victories are not always won, in fact seldom won, by timid, shy, "humble" and retiring characters.

This is not a war.

I think it is. It is a war against dan with the other side gleeful that someone was fired, by email no less.

[_Chap]

Didn't you say a few posts ago that you were done posting on this thread?

If I said that, anywhere on this thread, I'll grant your "comprehension" of the other things I've posted.

Really, you bore me, but you fit in here very well. Your posts could easily be cut-and-paste from the thousands of other posts that have been done over the years, which is why I, for the most part, don't bother much with boards anymore. DCP learned his lesson about this board ages ago, but unfortunately, I haven't.

It gets tiring, very tiring, going over the same things again and again, and I don't have much energy left.

Are you happy being in, or out of the Church? Are you happy believing it's a delusion? Are you happy that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and Mormonism a delusion? Are you happy that it's all a sham and a fraud?

Then go your way, and whine no more. Eat, drink and be merry, and don't waste a second of it, for tomorrow you die.

Have a good night.

If it is an inappropriate waste of time for someone who has left the CoJCoLDS to devote time and energy to talking with others about their sense of having been deceived, and their frustration that people they care about are still being deceived, how much more inappropriate is it for someone else who has left the church to devote time and energy to telling such people that they are making the wrong choice by expressing themselves as they do?

I suspect that RayA simply finds criticism of the CoJCoLDS uncomfortable, despite his having left that church, and wants it to stop.

[_RayAgostini]

I suspect that RayA simply finds criticism of the CoJCoLDS uncomfortable, despite his having left that church, and wants it to stop.

True. I plead guilty to feeling uncomfortable about the criticism.

I can't stop it anymore than I can halt Niagara Falls. I feel helpless. Regardless of my puny input here - it will go on. With or without me. And I don't even know why I care.

1 O that I were an angel, and could have the wish of mine heart, that I might go forth and speak with the Trump of God, with a voice to shake the earth, and cry repentance unto every people!
2 Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth.
3 But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me.
4 I ought not to harrow up in my desires, the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction.
5 Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.
6 Now, seeing that I know these things, why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?
7 Why should I desire that I were an angel, that I could speak unto all the ends of the earth?
8 For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.
9 I know that which the Lord hath commanded me, and I glory in it. I do not glory of myself, but I glory in that which the Lord hath commanded me; yea, and this is my glory, that perhaps I may be an instrument in the hands of God to bring some soul to repentance; and this is my joy.
10 And behold, when I see many of my brethren truly penitent, and coming to the Lord their God, then is my soul filled with joy; then do I remember what the Lord has done for me, yea, even that he hath heard my prayer; yea, then do I remember his merciful arm which he extended towards me.
11 Yea, and I also remember the captivity of my fathers; for I surely do know that the Lord did deliver them out of bondage, and by this did establish his church; yea, the Lord God, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, did deliver them out of bondage.
12 Yea, I have always remembered the captivity of my fathers; and that same God who delivered them out of the hands of the Egyptians did deliver them out of bondage.
13 Yea, and that same God did establish his church among them; yea, and that same God hath called me by a holy calling, to preach the word unto this people, and hath given me much success, in the which my joy is full.
14 But I do not joy in my own success alone, but my joy is more full because of the success of my brethren, who have been up to the land of Nephi.
15 Behold, they have labored exceedingly, and have brought forth much fruit; and how great shall be their reward!
16 Now, when I think of the success of these my brethren my soul is carried away, even to the separation of it from the body, as it were, so great is my joy.
17 And now may God grant unto these, my brethren, that they may sit down in the kingdom of God; yea, and also all those who are the fruit of their labors that they may go no more out, but that they may praise him forever. And may God grant that it may be done according to my words, even as I have spoken. Amen. (Alma 29)