Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

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_Droopy
_Emeritus
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Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Droopy »

I just saw something while doing surfing around regarding Dr. Bradford (I'd like to know more regarding what "makes him tick") and I found this:

In other words, students of religion need to become familiar with well-established critical positions on the question of religion­--materialist views, espoused by Marxist critics and others, atheistic and secular humanistic interpretations, along with various reductionistic views of religion, articulated in, say, forms of positivism or numerous psychoanalytical interpretations of religion. Precisely because such ideologies rival traditional systems of religious belief, they should be studied together. If this is not done, if one position is privileged over another and is thereby granted unquestioned status in the academy (something that, unfortunately, often seems to be the case), then a genuine, open-ended, and pluralistic approach to the study of religion becomes even more difficult to achieve.


http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=640


Now, Bradford makes some excellent points in this essay, but what struck me in reading this paragraph was the statement that "if one position is privileged over another and is thereby granted unquestioned status in the academy (something that, unfortunately, often seems to be the case), then a genuine, open-ended, and pluralistic approach to the study of religion becomes even more difficult to achieve." Please forgive me if I seem to detect a layer of the classic postmodernist fear of hierarchy and of "truth," in the sense that it can actually be grasped and classified relative to "non-truth" as a discernable property of an idea, proposition, argument, or body of belief, and of the now regnant epistemological egalitarianism that wishes to accord all ideas, no matter how preposterous or facile, equal status. But isn't the scholarly question, not epistemological status, but just knowledge? Knowledge of something, and its comparison and contrast to other bodies of belief? If someone actually believes one body of doctrine or teaching is better and more valid than another, or that one is true, or contains truth, and others don't, or contain less, why is that a problem for the scholarly study of all of them? It could be, of course, but I see no reason that this is a necessary condition associated with believing in an actually existing hierarchy of value and truth in the universe, nor that holding to such a hierarchy of values and truth is necessarily an inappropriate or improper perspective to bring to scholarly study.

This, I think, provides some insight into why Bradford chose to summarily dismantle NMI and purge the old 'FARMS group from the institute, rather than split the institute into two somewhat distinct, but overlapping organizations. To put it simply, in Bradford's mind, one cannot do scholarship and apologetcs at the same time because apologetics implies, by definition, the privileging of the fundamental claims the apologist seeks to defend and articulate; it implies truths, in a vast hierarchy of ideas and claims in which truth is asserted to reside, in comparison and contrast to which other claims, religious or otherwise, are to be distinguished as legitimate, open to question, or unfit as truth claims.

This seems to bother Bradford quite a bit. Personally, I do not see why LDS apologists, approaching the work of scholarship from within this frame of reference, cannot study, critique, and do substantive scholarly investigation of any and all subjects under the rubric of comparative religion and do it from an apologetic standpoint at the same time. I do not see the vast dichotomy here that Bradford appears to see. I see no logically compelling reason, in any case. I see no reason why a serious scholar cannot be both one who accepts and advances the concept of absolute, unalterable truths in the universe, and relative to the human condition, and at the same time approach other religions, as well as other aspects of the human condition, in an intellectually substantive manner as a scholar. I see no reason why the privileging of LDS truth claims should be a barrier to good scholarship (which is nothing more than a disciplined, organized, and methodical way of studying, thinking, and articulating ideas), nor why doing scholarship from within an LDS apologetic frame of reference would be detrimental to the study and understanding of other religions on the sole basis of a bias toward LDS truth claims.

In other words, FARMS was originally intended, not primarily as a clearinghouse for comparative religious scholarship or biblical studies, but as a scholarly clearinghouse for reasoned, intellectually substantive answers and challenge to the church's critics and detractors. Scholarship and comparative religious studies were a central feature of such a mission (it was done from within this intellectual framework (as opposed to less methodically researched and articulated approaches) but not its overarching focus. Bradford appears to be fundamentally uncomfortable with apologetics qua apologetics, which may be a substantial part of the reason for the ham-fisted and ugly way he summarily dismissed the last of the "old guard."

Bradford appears, from my armchair at least, to be another example of an LDS intellectual who has absorbed and imbibed a bit too much of the culture, ideology, and mental set of the contemporary academy, and is uncomfortable with those who do not share it. Anyone who knows anything about modern academia knows that purgings, denial of tenure, clever administrative ploys, and other techniques are deployed against people who are not "correct" in one way or another, are the coin of the realm and have been for some time when dealing with disliked intellectual Kulaks. Bradford's kind appearing words to those dismissed seem to belie the guillotine-like suddenness and finality of his actions.

Just my two cents.
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_Drifting
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Drifting »

Hi Droopy, I'm glad to see that the rumours of your latest final once and for all never to return no curtain calls not going to darken your doorstep ever again departure are as lacking in substance and fact as your posts...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Stormy Waters

Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Stormy Waters »

Drifting wrote:Hi Droopy, I'm glad to see that the rumours of your latest final once and for all never to return no curtain calls not going to darken your doorstep ever again departure are as lacking in substance and fact as your posts...


Perhaps to save time he could change his signature to "that's all, I must be going now."
_Bob Loblaw
_Emeritus
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Droopy's post, minus the verbosity and pretentiousness: Everyone knows that considering other viewpoints (that's what it means to not "privilege" something) is doing the devil's work.

And, Brother Droopy, I'd avoid using "imbibed," as it has an unfortunate connotation from which you may wish to distance yourself.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

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_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy,

Just because Bradford sees the necessity of studying other viewpoints does not mean that he sees everything as relative. He probably believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ (LDS) is the Truth, but as an academic he understands the necessity and importance of being able to engage other viewpoints from a position of understanding. If you begin with the assumption that your way is the right way, and your education is dominated by partisan views without any thorough exposure to different methodologies and viewpoints, then your work will be of limited value as a result.

We can take, for example, Hamblin on the issue of Freemasonry and the endowment. Anyone with real training in Anthropology, Ritual Studies, Religious Studies, and the like, will not be at all threatened by the implications of Joseph Smith drawing on symbolic systems in his environment as he set about restoring the endowment ceremony. Christianity was revealed via the same means in its time. But Hamblin flips out and sticks his fingers in his ears whenever he is shown to be a complete ignoramus on the subject of Freemasonry and its relationship with Early Mormonism. That's what you get for lacking the proper training to hold forth constructively on a subject, and it is a damn shame, since people like you take what he says seriously. Kerry Shirts, however, knows that Hamblin is full of crap on this point.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Hurry up Loran, before they get shutdown!

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_bcspace
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _bcspace »

Bradford appears, from my armchair at least, to be another example of an LDS intellectual who has absorbed and imbibed a bit too much of the culture, ideology, and mental set of the contemporary academy, and is uncomfortable with those who do not share it.


He's a liberal and a moral relativist as anyone can see by your quote:

If this is not done, if one position is privileged over another and is thereby granted unquestioned status in the academy (something that, unfortunately, often seems to be the case), then a genuine, open-ended, and pluralistic approach to the study of religion becomes even more difficult to achieve.


The reality is that not all philosophies have equal merit. The Church itself understands this and is evidenced in it's doctrines and teachings. Short shrift is given to those things which have no redeeming value. It is also not scholarship to ignore the relative value of something and not put it in it's proper place. Scholarship on a subject merely for the sake of scholarship is illogical and irrational.
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_Ludd
_Emeritus
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Ludd »

Droopy wrote:I just saw something while doing surfing around regarding Dr. Bradford (I'd like to know more regarding what "makes him tick") and I found this:

In other words, students of religion need to become familiar with well-established critical positions on the question of religion­--materialist views, espoused by Marxist critics and others, atheistic and secular humanistic interpretations, along with various reductionistic views of religion, articulated in, say, forms of positivism or numerous psychoanalytical interpretations of religion. Precisely because such ideologies rival traditional systems of religious belief, they should be studied together. If this is not done, if one position is privileged over another and is thereby granted unquestioned status in the academy (something that, unfortunately, often seems to be the case), then a genuine, open-ended, and pluralistic approach to the study of religion becomes even more difficult to achieve.


http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=640


Now, Bradford makes some excellent points in this essay, but what struck me in reading this paragraph was the statement that "if one position is privileged over another and is thereby granted unquestioned status in the academy (something that, unfortunately, often seems to be the case), then a genuine, open-ended, and pluralistic approach to the study of religion becomes even more difficult to achieve." Please forgive me if I seem to detect a layer of the classic postmodernist fear of hierarchy and of "truth," in the sense that it can actually be grasped and classified relative to "non-truth" as a discernable property of an idea, proposition, argument, or body of belief, and of the now regnant epistemological egalitarianism that wishes to accord all ideas, no matter how preposterous or facile, equal status. But isn't the scholarly question, not epistemological status, but just knowledge? Knowledge of something, and its comparison and contrast to other bodies of belief? If someone actually believes one body of doctrine or teaching is better and more valid than another, or that one is true, or contains truth, and others don't, or contain less, why is that a problem for the scholarly study of all of them? It could be, of course, but I see no reason that this is a necessary condition associated with believing in an actually existing hierarchy of value and truth in the universe, nor that holding to such a hierarchy of values and truth is necessarily an inappropriate or improper perspective to bring to scholarly study.

This, I think, provides some insight into why Bradford chose to summarily dismantle NMI and purge the old 'FARMS group from the institute, rather than split the institute into two somewhat distinct, but overlapping organizations. To put it simply, in Bradford's mind, one cannot do scholarship and apologetcs at the same time because apologetics implies, by definition, the privileging of the fundamental claims the apologist seeks to defend and articulate; it implies truths, in a vast hierarchy of ideas and claims in which truth is asserted to reside, in comparison and contrast to which other claims, religious or otherwise, are to be distinguished as legitimate, open to question, or unfit as truth claims.

This seems to bother Bradford quite a bit. Personally, I do not see why LDS apologists, approaching the work of scholarship from within this frame of reference, cannot study, critique, and do substantive scholarly investigation of any and all subjects under the rubric of comparative religion and do it from an apologetic standpoint at the same time. I do not see the vast dichotomy here that Bradford appears to see. I see no logically compelling reason, in any case. I see no reason why a serious scholar cannot be both one who accepts and advances the concept of absolute, unalterable truths in the universe, and relative to the human condition, and at the same time approach other religions, as well as other aspects of the human condition, in an intellectually substantive manner as a scholar. I see no reason why the privileging of LDS truth claims should be a barrier to good scholarship (which is nothing more than a disciplined, organized, and methodical way of studying, thinking, and articulating ideas), nor why doing scholarship from within an LDS apologetic frame of reference would be detrimental to the study and understanding of other religions on the sole basis of a bias toward LDS truth claims.

In other words, FARMS was originally intended, not primarily as a clearinghouse for comparative religious scholarship or biblical studies, but as a scholarly clearinghouse for reasoned, intellectually substantive answers and challenge to the church's critics and detractors. Scholarship and comparative religious studies were a central feature of such a mission (it was done from within this intellectual framework (as opposed to less methodically researched and articulated approaches) but not its overarching focus. Bradford appears to be fundamentally uncomfortable with apologetics qua apologetics, which may be a substantial part of the reason for the ham-fisted and ugly way he summarily dismissed the last of the "old guard."

Bradford appears, from my armchair at least, to be another example of an LDS intellectual who has absorbed and imbibed a bit too much of the culture, ideology, and mental set of the contemporary academy, and is uncomfortable with those who do not share it. Anyone who knows anything about modern academia knows that purgings, denial of tenure, clever administrative ploys, and other techniques are deployed against people who are not "correct" in one way or another, are the coin of the realm and have been for some time when dealing with disliked intellectual Kulaks. Bradford's kind appearing words to those dismissed seem to belie the guillotine-like suddenness and finality of his actions.

Just my two cents.

I couldn't care less about recent events at yBu, but I do think you are right on the mark with your analysis of Bradford and his motives.
_Ludd
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Ludd »

Kishkumen wrote:Droopy,

Just because Bradford sees the necessity of studying other viewpoints does not mean that he sees everything as relative. He probably believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ (LDS) is the Truth, but as an academic he understands the necessity and importance of being able to engage other viewpoints from a position of understanding. If you begin with the assumption that your way is the right way, and your education is dominated by partisan views without any thorough exposure to different methodologies and viewpoints, then your work will be of limited value as a result.

We can take, for example, Hamblin on the issue of Freemasonry and the endowment. Anyone with real training in Anthropology, Ritual Studies, Religious Studies, and the like, will not be at all threatened by the implications of Joseph Smith drawing on symbolic systems in his environment as he set about restoring the endowment ceremony. Christianity was revealed via the same means in its time. But Hamblin flips out and sticks his fingers in his ears whenever he is shown to be a complete ignoramus on the subject of Freemasonry and its relationship with Early Mormonism. That's what you get for lacking the proper training to hold forth constructively on a subject, and it is a damn shame, since people like you take what he says seriously. Kerry Shirts, however, knows that Hamblin is full of crap on this point.


:lol:

It's hilarious to see all the exmos becoming apologists for Bradford, of all people!

Good on ya, KishScratch! Or is it ScratchKumen? :lol:
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Kishkumen »

Ludd wrote::lol:

It's hilarious to see all the exmos becoming apologists for Bradford, of all people!

Good on ya, KishScratch! Or is it ScratchKumen? :lol:


Not half as funny as watching you agree with Droopy's agenda-driven eisigesis without thinking.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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