Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

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_sansfoy
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _sansfoy »

Droopy wrote:To put it simply, in Bradford's mind, one cannot do scholarship and apologetcs at the same time because apologetics implies, by definition, the privileging of the fundamental claims the apologist seeks to defend and articulate; it implies truths, in a vast hierarchy of ideas and claims in which truth is asserted to reside, in comparison and contrast to which other claims, religious or otherwise, are to be distinguished as legitimate, open to question, or unfit as truth claims.


And this is my problems with considering apologetics an academic discipline. Instead of beginning with a question and working forward, it starts with the answer and works backward. The results will always be suspect.
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_Samantabhadra
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Kishkumen wrote:We can take, for example, Hamblin on the issue of Freemasonry and the endowment. Anyone with real training in Anthropology, Ritual Studies, Religious Studies, and the like, will not be at all threatened by the implications of Joseph Smith drawing on symbolic systems in his environment as he set about restoring the endowment ceremony. Christianity was revealed via the same means in its time. But Hamblin flips out and sticks his fingers in his ears whenever he is shown to be a complete ignoramus on the subject of Freemasonry and its relationship with Early Mormonism. That's what you get for lacking the proper training to hold forth constructively on a subject, and it is a damn shame, since people like you take what he says seriously. Kerry Shirts, however, knows that Hamblin is full of crap on this point.


On a (semi-)related note, when is your book coming out??? Inquiring minds want to know...
_Kishkumen
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Kishkumen »

Samantabhadra wrote:On a (semi-)related note, when is your book coming out??? Inquiring minds want to know...


I just barely sent the manuscript to the publisher. It has to go to readers, who will respond, then the acquisitions editor will make a decision based on their comments and my response. We have a ways to go yet. Thanks for asking, though!

Right now I am working on the gens Valeria and the Ludi Saeculares. Having a blast with it too!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Droopy
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Droopy »

Everyone knows that considering other viewpoints (that's what it means to not "privilege" something) is doing the devil's work.


You've apparently missed my point entirely. The privileging of a particular viewpoint is:

1. Impossible not to to do for human beings. All human beings, including scholars and academics, approach their subject matter with a particular bias and weltanschauung. Pretending otherwise is, itself, evidence of an undisclosed ideology at work.

2. A nice ideal to keep in mind within a strictly academic setting in which descriptive knowledge is all that is being sought. However, FARMS was never originally conceived of in this way. It was a scholarly institution, but also an apologetic one. Its mission was not strictly to described and analyze anti-Mormonism in a purely dispassionate manner, but to critique it.

This is a legitimate scholarly enterprise, so long as it is stated openly.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Equality
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Equality »

Droopy wrote:
Everyone knows that considering other viewpoints (that's what it means to not "privilege" something) is doing the devil's work.


You've apparently missed my point entirely. The privileging of a particular viewpoint is:

1. Impossible not to to do for human beings. All human beings, including scholars and academics, approach their subject matter with a particular bias and weltanschauung. Pretending otherwise is, itself, evidence of an undisclosed ideology at work.

2. A nice ideal to keep in mind within a strictly academic setting in which descriptive knowledge is all that is being sought. However, FARMS was never originally conceived of in this way. It was a scholarly institution, but also an apologetic one. Its mission was not strictly to described and analyze anti-Mormonism in a purely dispassionate manner, but to critique it.

This is a legitimate scholarly enterprise, so long as it is stated openly.


What does this have to do with Dehlin? Why did you lie to us, Loran?
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:You've apparently missed my point entirely. The privileging of a particular viewpoint is:

1. Impossible not to to do for human beings. All human beings, including scholars and academics, approach their subject matter with a particular bias and weltanschauung. Pretending otherwise is, itself, evidence of an undisclosed ideology at work.

2. A nice ideal to keep in mind within a strictly academic setting in which descriptive knowledge is all that is being sought. However, FARMS was never originally conceived of in this way. It was a scholarly institution, but also an apologetic one. Its mission was not strictly to described and analyze anti-Mormonism in a purely dispassionate manner, but to critique it.

This is a legitimate scholarly enterprise, so long as it is stated openly.


No, it is you who has missed the point entirely. You are trying to question Bradford's dedication to the Gospel by suggesting that this statement reveals his allegiance to a false philosophy. What you neglect to acknowledge in leveling this accusation is that LDS apologists have appropriated post-modernism in their own work, while remaining committed to the idea that Mormonism is the Truth. What you transparently are is an ideologue hack masquerading as an apologist. You identify certain buzz words or concepts that set off your ideological alarms and then you jump on the person using them as an enemy of Truth, when all that you have shown is that the person isn't a wacko-conservative crank like you.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Droopy
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Droopy »

Just because Bradford sees the necessity of studying other viewpoints does not mean that he sees everything as relative.


So do I. So does Daniel. So do most, if not all LDS scholars. You'd be interested, among my massive personal library, in the many books on religions, living and dead, other than my own. That, again, is not the point. Bradford did not have to destroy NMI/FARMS as originally conceived to follow his vision. Another wing or division of NMI would have worked just fine - unless one conceives of the original FARMS project as fundamenally illegitimate and therefore, in a sense "doesn't want to be seen with it."
He probably believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ (LDS) is the Truth, but as an academic he understands the necessity and importance of being able to engage other viewpoints from a position of understanding.


This is irrelevant. FARMS has been doing precisely that since its inception. I've spent a significant portion of my adult life studying (among other things) other religions "from a perspective of understanding" and personal interest. I also have a bias and underlying privileged perspective - the restored gospel - and this has never interfered, in the slightest, in my interest in and study of other religions.

If you begin with the assumption that your way is the right way, and your education is dominated by partisan views without any thorough exposure to different methodologies and viewpoints, then your work will be of limited value as a result.


Nonsense. This is an assumption and preconception on your part, and nothing more. There is no necessary reason to believe that a bias or belief that something is right precludes scholarly study of other systems of belief one understands to be wrong or otherwise lacking in some manner.

Scholarship is nothing more than the disciplined and methodical study of something and its accurate description to others. So long as one is able to honestly and as accurately as possible, describe and explain a system of belief (say Taoism) in an intellectually substantive and scholarly way, bias is not an issue. One can also compare and contrast Taoism with the gospel (the bias) in an intellectually substantive and scholarly way, looking for areas of agreement as well as divergence. This is also a legitimate scholarly pursuit.

The problem only arises when one's bias causes one to misrepresent or characterize another religion for polemical purposes (one reason the Nag Hammadi manuscripts are so important), but that is a matter of intellectual honesty, personal integrity, and/or psychological temperament, not the existence of bias per se.

We can take, for example, Hamblin on the issue of Freemasonry and the endowment. Anyone with real training in Anthropology, Ritual Studies, Religious Studies, and the like, will not be at all threatened by the implications of Joseph Smith drawing on symbolic systems in his environment as he set about restoring the endowment ceremony. Christianity was revealed via the same means in its time.


And now here comes a paragraph of polemical frothing on subjects upon which it is not at all clear to me that you know what your talking about, but which your authoritative tone would like to make appear so.

While anyone trained in the above heavily theoretic and conjectural disciplines (which doesn't make them bad or unworthwhile, just, as with most of the humanities and social sciences, theory rich and data poor) may look at the origin of the Temple endowment that way, not being trained in the gospel of Jesus Christ and in the Temple endowment itself renders these purely secular perspectives moot since - precisely - those who approach the gospel in such a narrow, naturalistic manner are not competent to judge the material with which they are working.

Hamblin approaches the Temple as both a scholar and one who has partaken of its ordinances and received a witness to their truth through the Holy Spirit. Bill Hamblin knows things about the origin of the Temple that a secular anthropologist can only infer and guess at based upon the surface phenomena within his intellectual frame of reference.

And that's where it ends.

But Hamblin flips out and sticks his fingers in his ears whenever he is shown to be a complete ignoramus on the subject of Freemasonry and its relationship with Early Mormonism. That's what you get for lacking the proper training to hold forth constructively on a subject, and it is a damn shame, since people like you take what he says seriously. Kerry Shirts, however, knows that Hamblin is full of crap on this point.


That's the first time I've ever seen Shirts defended in this forum. Ever. Is he your mascot now? I like some of what Shirts has written over the years. I'm dubious about other things he has said. But this isn't about Shirts vs. Hamblin. We know, because of a number of Masons who are also Mormons who have written about this subject, that the Masonic rituals contain both similarities and substantial differences.

Ancient Egyptian ritual drama regarding the journey through mortality and the passage of the spirit into the afterworld are much closer, if you wish real parallels, as are the mysteries of Cyril. The problem is that both the Masonic (an apostate form, from an LDS perspective) and the Temple endowment (the true, revealed pattern) rituals have ancient origins, but a secular anthropologist - especially given the theoretical biases (privileged intellectual template) of that discipline, is only going to be capable of discerning a linear, cause and effect derivative relationship going no further than the 19th century. A fatal error, but only to be expected from a purely naturalist, secular perspective.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Droopy »

It is also not scholarship to ignore the relative value of something and not put it in it's proper place.



Exactly correct, and an insight that files directly into the Gorgon face of the entire postmodern mentality and intellectual reference frame to which Bradford appears to be fairly attached.

The real problem Bradford is going to run into here is escaping from the corner he has painted himself into by arguing that scholarship, to be real scholarship, must not privilege any body of knowledge, claims, assertions, propositions, or perspectives over any other.

This very claim is itself a bias and an overarching theoretical template, which, according to Bradford's own arguments, is disallowed. It is this template itself - Bradford's own theoretic bias - that should now be deconstructed and analyzed for its own privileging of discourse.

Let's pull the mask off of Bradford's theory of scholarship and see what lies beneath.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Eric

Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Eric »

I can honestly say that I never expected to see Internet Mormons turn on one of their own like this. Unbelievable. Hooray for apologetics!
_Droopy
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Re: Gerald Bradford and the Last Crusade

Post by _Droopy »

What you neglect to acknowledge in leveling this accusation is that LDS apologists have appropriated post-modernism in their own work, while remaining committed to the idea that Mormonism is the Truth.


This is logically and conceptually self contradictory. Postmodernism, and what Leotard called "the postmodern condition," is that of the complete rejection of all meta-narratives, as well as any conception of "truth" as anything other than a sociological construction centered in a particular time and culture and serving particular ideological interests.

Postmodernism is utterly useless as a template with which to understand anything (save the cultural and psychological dynamics that created it) let alone the gospel, church, and its relation to the larger world.
Postmodernism is also logically self negating in its own right, so it cannot really serve as an epistemic or analytical tool at all, in the philosophically normative sense.

What you transparently are is an ideologue hack masquerading as an apologist.


Well, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me.

You identify certain buzz words or concepts that set off your ideological alarms and then you jump on the person using them as an enemy of Truth, when all that you have shown is that the person isn't a wacko-conservative crank like you.


Image
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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