Lest Ye Celebrate Too Heartily....

[_Kishkumen]

Kishkumen, for what it's worth, I have been completely baffled by Ray's extremely personal attacks on you as a result of you stating your opinion on the direction the church should take its apologetics. I don't understand it at all.

Oh, I think someone compiled a "creepy dossier" on me, in which harsh statements I have made about the LDS Church and its teachings were emphasized, and in which the case was bogusly forwarded that I am Doctor Scratch. Ray has also decided that Mormons are picked on, which is true, in my opinion, and that those who strike back are his real friends. Since I have taken issue with how these folks strike back and their choice of people to strike at, for Ray my name is mud and he ended our friendship.

I think there is a lot of confusion of issues and personal loyalties at work, and I am not sure I get it completely myself. At one point he decided I was Scratch, and attacked me on that basis. Soon it became, "even if you aren't Scratch, you're still a liar and a pathetic human being." So, there you have it.

[_sock puppet]

Kishkumen, for what it's worth, I have been completely baffled by Ray's extremely personal attacks on you as a result of you stating your opinion on the direction the church should take its apologetics. I don't understand it at all.

Oh, I think someone compiled a "creepy dossier" on me, in which harsh statements I have made about the LDS Church and its teachings were emphasized, and in which the case was bogusly forwarded that I am Doctor Scratch. Ray has also decided that Mormons are picked on, which is true, in my opinion, and that those who strike back are his real friends. Since I have taken issue with how these folks strike back and their choice of people to strike at, for Ray my name is mud and he ended our friendship.

I think there is a lot of confusion of issues and personal loyalties at work, and I am not sure I get it completely myself. At one point he decided I was Scratch, and attacked me on that basis. Soon it became, "even if you aren't Scratch, you're still a liar and a pathetic human being." So, there you have it.

Reverend,

It might be that after the Dehlin hit piece was to be published, you were next in line for the Greg Smith-DCP cross-hairs.

I think your academic accomplishments and metered distance from "the Church" is viewed as an anathema to the creator and maintainer of Mormon Scholars Testify. It seems DCP, through his posse, has been going after you of late.

[_Cylon]

Oh, I think someone compiled a "creepy dossier" on me, in which harsh statements I have made about the LDS Church and its teachings were emphasized, and in which the case was bogusly forwarded that I am Doctor Scratch. Ray has also decided that Mormons are picked on, which is true, in my opinion, and that those who strike back are his real friends. Since I have taken issue with how these folks strike back and their choice of people to strike at, for Ray my name is mud and he ended our friendship.

I think there is a lot of confusion of issues and personal loyalties at work, and I am not sure I get it completely myself. At one point he decided I was Scratch, and attacked me on that basis. Soon it became, "even if you aren't Scratch, you're still a liar and a pathetic human being." So, there you have it.

*Sigh*. It's a shame when people feel they have to pick sides and anyone who is not on "their side" is an enemy.

[_Chap]

My goodness - I am so glad I never got myself emotionally invested in a church that you had to be worthy of! The one I was in was strictly for sinners.

The thing is, Mormonism is just not "any other religion". And the Book of Mormon is not just "any other book". I'm convinced that it's inspired, and that it came through the mediation of a modern prophet, who, at 23 years of age, gave the world a modern revelation. Joseph is a man I truly, deeply admire, and I don't believe that he could have "concocted" the Book of Mormon, and I totally reject the silly "Spalding" theories, which have been long discredited, yet remain a force in the fuzzy agenda-ridden minds of his critics, some of whom haven't even read the Book of Mormon!

This is no fake or fraud religion. It's the real thing, in my view, and I'll hang on to the Book of Mormon as evidence for this - until the day I die.

No man could have produced that book, unless he was inspired from heaven. And on my last breath - I will so testify.

Ignore Kiskumen! He will have his just reward - in time.

Oh well, if RayA believes the Book of Mormon is not an early 19th century religious pastiche, but is inspired by one of those 'deity' thingummies, the rest of us had better take his word for it.

[_Kishkumen]

Reverend,

It might be that after the Dehlin hit piece was to be published, you were next in line for the Greg Smith-DCP cross-hairs.

I think your academic accomplishments and metered distance from "the Church" is viewed as an anathema to the creator and maintainer of Mormon Scholars Testify. It seems DCP, through his posse, has been going after you of late.

Hohoho! No. I don't think so. A person of my low profile does not merit the Greg Smith treatment. I think this is a matter of the "special friends" I have made among the Old Guard and their lackeys. I may not be worth much effort, but it was particularly juicy fun for one or two of them to turn Ray against me, and it cost them very little to do so.

[_Kishkumen]

*Sigh*. It's a shame when people feel they have to pick sides and anyone who is not on "their side" is an enemy.

You have put your finger on their (Old Guard FARMS') supreme value: loyalty to the in-group on their terms.

[_Kishkumen]

Oh well, if RayA believes the Book of Mormon is not an early 19th century religious pastiche, but is inspired by one of those 'deity' thingummies, the rest of us had better take his word for it.

I have no problem with Ray's position on the Book of Mormon. I have a problem with certain apologists' recent abuse of the Book of Mormon in order to stoke apocalyptic fear and pummel their enemies.

[_Racer]

LOL. I didn't catch Racer's objection to my use of the term "dipstick," Doctor. Thanks for quoting that. I find it odd that anyone would take exception to me calling Droopy a dipstick, while certain apologists have such a long history of deriding so-called critics by insulting them. A certain BYU professor recently sent me a "kind" (scare quotes for Ray) email in which he called me an anti-Mormon among other things. But, yes, insulting so-called critics is such a regular practice among certain apologists that it is practically a given.

But, in any case, perhaps I should apologize to Droopy for using such harsh language, while he addresses us as socialists, apostates, people incapable of "serious discourse," and so forth. And Ray adds his bit about me being a traitor, a pathetic person, etc. Yes, I can see how "dipstick" was completely out of line in the face of such polite and conciliatory attempts to dialogue in a mature fashion. I should be ashamed of myself.

Kish,

I think you and Scratch must have misunderstood me, or I misunderstood Ray A. I have absolutely no objection over you or anyone else refering to someone as a dipstick. I was responding to Ray's challenge to me to point out an instance where DCP has referred to a critc as a "dipstick" on this board. I responded that I was not familiar enough with the board to know whether DCP had every called any critics on here a "dipstick", but I countered that if he wasn't here, he was most certainly calling critics names on other boards. In other words, I felt like Ray was making DCP sound like some innocent victim who never resorted to name calling, and I was countering his challenge. I am still new, so maybe there is more backstory to this whole "dipstick" thing and I misinterpretted Ray A. Sorry for the confusion.

Nevertheless, go ahead and have a good puke at the hypocrisy. I'd dare anyone, on this board, to find any DCP post archived here, which calls any critic a "dipstick". Find one.

I haven't been on this board long enough to know whether DCP has an archive here where he calls a critic a "dipstick". He probably doesn't since he doesn't have a home field advantage and we are not is intended audience. However, I dare you to mosey on over to another board like MDD and find a DCP post where he calls someone on this board a "dipstick" or something like unto it.

[_Kishkumen]

Kish,

I think you and Scratch must have misunderstood me, or I misunderstood Ray A. I have absolutely no objection over you or anyone else refering to someone as a dipstick. I was responding to Ray's challenge to me to point out an instance where DCP has referred to a critc as a "dipstick" on this board. I responded that I was not familiar enough with the board to know whether DCP had every called any critics on here a "dipstick", but I countered that if he wasn't here, he was most certainly calling critics names on other boards. In other words, I felt like Ray was making DCP sound like some innocent victim who never resorted to name calling, and I was countering his challenge. I am still new, so maybe there is more backstory to this whole "dipstick" thing and I misinterpretted Ray A. Sorry for the confusion.

No worries, Racer. My mistake.

All I can tell you about Ray's challenge is that it is totally silly and completely beside the point. Maybe DCP just doesn't use the word "dipstick." There is a whole catalog of unkind things he has said about various of his enemies over the years, so it really doesn't matter whether dipstick in particular is on the list. (Since when did a silly insult heard regularly on Dukes of Hazzard become some kind of terrible thing?) I could list them, but I am sure this would be interpreted as me being nasty to him, while my silence is taken as not having anything to list. The double standard is incredible, but they think nothing of it, because they are "right."

[Guest]

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