Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

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_Tobin
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Tobin »

Juggler Vain wrote:I still don't get where you are coming from. In what way do you think God did/does have a hand in the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church?
-JV
My point is God doesn't drive us around, and I know you hate the term, as sock puppets. He doesn't do that with the leaders of the LDS Church. He doesn't do that with the members of the Church. He didn't do it with Joseph Smith. He didn't do it with Nephi. The expectation that miraculously people will not have biases, be bigoted, and be devoid of the imperfections of humanity simply because they may have spoken with God (or belong to his Church) is completely unreasonable. And to expect their perceptions not to be reflected in their views is also unreasonable.

Now, I recognize there are racist statements in the scriptures (both the Bible and Book of Mormon) and in opinions and teachings expressed by the leaders of the Church. I don't attibute those to God, but to the authors themselves. After all, we are all children of God and God doesn't care what race we are. It simply makes no sense to believe God would be a racist. And when views like that are expressed, they should be used as an object lesson about how not to behave and think.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Darth J
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Darth J »

I wonder how we can be sure that Nephi's assertions about the nature of God, and the requirements for salvation, and the miracles that God supposedly did among the children of Israel, are not also merely Nephi recording his own prejudices, opinions, and assumptions, and then attributing his personal views to God.
_Juggler Vain
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Juggler Vain »

Tobin wrote:
Juggler Vain wrote:I still don't get where you are coming from. In what way do you think God did/does have a hand in the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church?
-JV
My point is God doesn't drive us around, and I know you hate the term, as sock puppets. He doesn't do that with the leaders of the LDS Church. He doesn't do that with the members of the Church. He didn't do it with Joseph Smith. He didn't do it with Nephi. The expectation that miraculously people will not have biases, be bigoted, and be devoid of the imperfections of humanity simply because they may have spoken with God (or belong to his Church) is completely unreasonable. And to expect their perceptions not to be reflected in their views is also unreasonable.

Now, I recognize there are racist statements in the scriptures (both the Bible and Book of Mormon) and in opinions and teachings expressed by the leaders of the Church. I don't attibute those to God, but to the authors themselves. After all, we are all children of God and God doesn't care what race we are. It simply makes no sense to believe God would be a racist. And when views like that are expressed, they should be used as an object lesson about how not to behave and think.

You still haven't answered my question. You've made it abundantly clear that in many ways God doesn't/didn't have a hand in the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church, but in what way does/did God have a hand in those things?

-JV
_Droopy
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Droopy »

Anyway, Joseph Smith's Bible Fanfic doesn't so much as "point out variations in human morphology" as attribute variations in human morphology to divine retribution for sin.


The "curse" set upon the descendents of Laman and Lemuel, for their rebellion against God and treatment of their father, an authorized and chosen prophet of the Lord, was a curse of cultural separation, as well as of the cultural degeneration experienced by that lineage in comparison and contrast to the high civilization of the Nephites.

Those changes attributable to a certain branch of the Lamanites were symbolic of their spiritual state and the cultural changes that are the outward manifestation (on a societal scale) of that spiritual state. Interestingly, the same changes did not come upon other of the Nephites, even when they became more wicked than the Lamanites, and the Lamanites skin color did not change when they became righteous, and indeed, more righteous than the Nephites. Follow this through to the obvious: skin colore alterations, in the Book of Mormon, are both signifiers of spiritual, moral, and cultural attributes, and, at the same time, not signifiers of such attributes. Samual the Lamanite was a righteous Lamanite prophet nearly murdered in cold blood by the Nephites at the bottom of one of their "pride cycles," but his skin was still dark.

And the Nephites, in the abyss of cultural decline, were still light skinned.

Even more interestingly, the Book of Mormon itself relates dire warnings to those who engage in ethnocentric bigotry. Jacob 3:9 warns:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.

You and others here, steeped in the modernist superstitions of political correctness, insist on associating phenomena like skin color with race, but there is no concept of "race" in the Book of Mormon (unlike the 19th century culture in which the Book of Mormon was written). There is no doctrine, teaching, or attitude within the Book of Mormon that imputes, innate, inherent deficiencies, moral, intellectual, or psychological, to the Lamanites, nor any inherent superiority associated with being a Nephite or having lighter skin. The only deficiency attributed to them, ever, is that of the cultural/moral state of their society brought about by the "traditions of their fathers" to which they were wedded through cultural transmission and socialization.

The problem with the Nephites, in other words, was sin, and any morphological changes were only a symbolic marker - a warning to the Nephites - that cultural integration with them would mean abandonment of Nephite culture, to the extent Nephite culture was representative of the gospel.

Sin and cultural deterioration of exactly the same kind brought about exactly the same consequences when the Nephites engaged in it as for the Lamanites. There is, fascinatingly, not a sentence of racism in the entire book (any claim that the Lamanites were innately inferior, sub-human, or of an inherently lower order), but only claims regarding their behavior, attitudes, and culture.

Strange, it is, that the Book of Mormon is the antithesis of the white racism of the 19th century, as well as the sanctified intellectual national socialism of contemporary multiculturalism.

It denies them both.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

2 Therefore, all the Lamanites who had become converted unto the Lord did unite with their brethren, the Nephites, and were compelled, for the safety of their lives and their women and their children, to take up arms against those Gadianton robbers, yea, and also to maintain their rights, and the privileges of their church and of their worship, and their freedom and their liberty.

13 And it came to pass that before this thirteenth year had passed away the Nephites were threatened with utter destruction because of this war, which had become exceedingly sore.

14 And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;

15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;


How is it Droopy unfailingly demonstrates his ignorance of his own religion, and never catches on it's better to be thought a fool rather than post on MDB and remove all doubt?

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Equality
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Equality »

Droopy wrote:
...Ravings of a right-wing lunatic...

What did all that have to do with John Dehlin and Jerry Bradford? Droopy, why did you lie to all of us?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
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_Droopy
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Droopy »

How is it Droopy unfailingly demonstrates his ignorance of his own religion, and never catches on it's better to be thought a fool rather than post on MDB and remove all doubt?



Its called "intermarriage," and it doesn't take a great quantity of intelligence to determine for oneself that some groups of Lamanties engaged in it while others did not.

It really isn't that difficult for an intellectually honest interlocutor.

But that's hard to come by these days.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Droopy »

...Ravings of a right-wing lunatic..
What did all that have to do with John Dehlin and Jerry Bradford? Droopy, why did you lie to all of us?




Huh?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_LDSToronto
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _LDSToronto »

Tobin wrote:
Juggler Vain wrote:Your description of the Bible and Book of Mormon ignores the existence of "prophecy and revelation." You are taking my "simplistic" analogy and simplifying it even further -- saying that Equality/God didn't actually assist the author of the book. I don't have any objection to you saying that God had no hand in what those guys wrote. I think you and Equality and I would agree on that point.

Your explanation still doesn't square with the idea that God asked Joseph Smith to publish the racist message of the Book of Mormon, and not only that, but also to establish an organization to evangelize the racist message for 180+ years (and counting). If you are denying that God had a hand in that, then I think we agree on that too.

What are you debating?
Again, you might have a point if God handed Joseph Smith the translation of the Book of Mormon and said, "Here - publish this." That isn't what happened.


That's *exactly* what happened. Joseph was handed the translation as it appeared on a stone in a hat. Isn't that the alleged truth of the matter?

H.
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_Droopy
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Droopy »

bcspace wrote:
Why doesn't God just "inspire" the people with incorrect views not to include the incorrect views? If God can communicate with mortals and give them "inspiration" why is he limited so that he can't correct their incorrect views? Doesn't make any sense. It's like if my kid writes a history paper and gives it to me to review, and I correct half his errors but leave the other half in the paper without correction. Is it my kid's fault or mine that the errors are printed in the final paper he submits?


What if he thinks he's got it and doesn't need your help? He will find out when he gets his graded paper back and learn a lesson. In any case, you're just assuming the LDS case is wrong. You actually have no evidence of that.



Yeah, but its the attitude that counts around here (as I've come to understand from long experience).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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