Tobin wrote:And LDS prophets are not necessarily inspired, or called of God. It is merely an ecclesiastical title in the LDS Church.
Does any other believing Mormon agree with this?
The ecclesiastical title is "president" or "apostle." Church members sustain the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators. These three words have specific meaning in the LDS church, and they aren't "titles," ecclesiastical or otherwise.
Here's the Guide to the Scriptures definition:
PROPHET See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer.
A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.
Yet, according to Tobin, these are just guys who may or may not be inspired. Who's the apostate? Us or Tobin?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Bob Loblaw wrote:Yet, according to Tobin, these are just guys who may or may not be inspired. Who's the apostate? Us or Tobin?
As far as I understand Tobin, because of his interest in identifying as LDS, I would consider him a "New Order Mormon," but only under the broadest definition of that term, since his belief in the divinity of Mormonism is limited to the very basic concepts that (1) a God exists and (2) you can speak with God to determine what is true.
Most mainstream LDS would consider him an "apostate," plain and simple.
Bob Loblaw wrote:Yet, according to Tobin, these are just guys who may or may not be inspired. Who's the apostate? Us or Tobin?
As far as I understand Tobin, because of his interest in identifying as LDS, I would consider him a "New Order Mormon," but only under the broadest definition of that term, since his belief in the divinity of Mormonism is limited to the very basic concepts that (1) a God exists and (2) you can speak with God to determine what is true.
Most mainstream LDS would consider him an "apostate," plain and simple.
-JV
I actually think most NOM's would consider him either an apostate or anti Mormon.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Juggler Vain wrote:Do you accept the idea that the "face value" of the Book of Mormon text is what nearly all mainstream Mormons accept and teach their kids, and that the Church provides resources to facilitate this teaching?
I agree that the criticism is valid and that the mainstream practice is misguided. But, I'm also of the view that the speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr should be taught in LDS Churches. I also think the Church should apologize for its practice of banning blacks from priesthod and denounce it as a man-made, despicable doctrine that we completely reject.
I think I get it. You don't condone racism, in any variety, including the Mormon variety. And when the Book of Mormon gives you racist lemons, you can make anti-racist lemonade with it. I think that's great, and I wish everybody in the Church would do that. I would also like the Church to explicitly acknowledge and disavow, in unambiguous terms, its racist doctrines and past actions.
Bob Loblaw wrote:Yet, according to Tobin, these are just guys who may or may not be inspired. Who's the apostate? Us or Tobin?
As far as I understand Tobin, because of his interest in identifying as LDS, I would consider him a "New Order Mormon," but only under the broadest definition of that term, since his belief in the divinity of Mormonism is limited to the very basic concepts that (1) a God exists and (2) you can speak with God to determine what is true.
Most mainstream LDS would consider him an "apostate," plain and simple.
You are welcome to your opinions. However, I have the view that this is very Mormon in its approach and exactly how investigators of the Church are challenged. They aren't asked to accept the claims of the Book of Mormon (and Mormonism) simply because the missionaries, TSM, or Joseph Smith says so. They are asked to speak with God and make their own determination. This is in essence all that Mormonism is and should be about.
And the view that the Mormon Church is the Kingdom of God (or the Church of God) is simply false. The Kingdom of God (or Church of God) is a completely different animal. Mormonism (and the LDS Church) can lead you to God and to the Kingdom of God, but the LDS Church is merely a vehicle (and a flawed one at that) and a means to an end. As Luke states that Jesus taught, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Juggler Vain wrote:As far as I understand Tobin, because of his interest in identifying as LDS, I would consider him a "New Order Mormon," but only under the broadest definition of that term, since his belief in the divinity of Mormonism is limited to the very basic concepts that (1) a God exists and (2) you can speak with God to determine what is true.
Most mainstream LDS would consider him an "apostate," plain and simple.
-JV
I actually think most NOM's would consider him either an apostate or anti Mormon.
I know athiest and agnostic NOMs. They aren't threatened by somebody who doesn't hold any literal beliefs about the divine nature of Mormon doctrine. The point is to be part of Mormon culture, regardless of belief.
Tobin wrote:And the view that the Mormon Church is the Kingdom of God (or the Church of God) is simply false. The Kingdom of God (or Church of God) is a completely different animal. Mormonism (and the LDS Church) can lead you to God and to the Kingdom of God, but the LDS Church is merely a vehicle (and a flawed one at that) and means to an end. As Luke states that Jesus taught, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Once again Tobin shows himself to be in apostasy. From the Guide to the Scriptures:
"The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). "
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:And the view that the Mormon Church is the Kingdom of God (or the Church of God) is simply false. The Kingdom of God (or Church of God) is a completely different animal. Mormonism (and the LDS Church) can lead you to God and to the Kingdom of God, but the LDS Church is merely a vehicle (and a flawed one at that) and means to an end. As Luke states that Jesus taught, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Once again Tobin shows himself to be in apostasy. From the Guide to the Scriptures:
"The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). "
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Juggler Vain wrote: And the view that the Mormon Church is the Kingdom of God (or the Church of God) is simply false. The Kingdom of God (or Church of God) is a completely different animal. Mormonism (and the LDS Church) can lead you to God and to the Kingdom of God, but the LDS Church is merely a vehicle (and a flawed one at that) and a means to an end. As Luke states that Jesus taught.
Yeah, I believe that. But I am considered an "apostate" for my beliefs... And if you were to preach This at church, you would be too. It goes against what most active members believe is doctrine.
PS...how dare you question the "Lord's annointed" on this matter. The church and the kingdom of God ARE the same thing.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby
Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
Tobin wrote:And the view that the Mormon Church is the Kingdom of God (or the Church of God) is simply false. The Kingdom of God (or Church of God) is a completely different animal. Mormonism (and the LDS Church) can lead you to God and to the Kingdom of God, but the LDS Church is merely a vehicle (and a flawed one at that) and a means to an end. As Luke states that Jesus taught.
Yeah, I believe that. But I am considered an "apostate" for my beliefs... And if you were to preach This at church, you would be too. It goes against what most active members believe is doctrine.
PS...how dare you question the "Lord's annointed" on this matter. The church and the kingdom of God ARE the same thing.
Call me old fashioned, but I tend to believe the Lord and what he taught as stated by Luke. And if the Lords anointed have a problem with that, then are they really the Lord's anointed?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom