Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

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_Chap
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Chap »

Tobin wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I tend to believe the Lord and what he taught as stated by Luke. And if the Lords anointed have a problem with that, then are they really the Lord's anointed?


Yup. We have an apostate here. Even I can tell that.

Burn the Panda.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Equality
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Equality »

Tobin wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I tend to believe the Lord and what he taught as stated by Luke. And if the Lords anointed have a problem with that, then are they really the Lord's anointed?

And how do you know that what Luke said the Lord said wasn't one of those things that was just the product of Luke's own limited understanding and not something the Lord actually said? Maybe what the Lord said was totally different, but Jesus just didn't want to correct it because, you know, he didn't want to make Luke his sock puppet.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_Tobin
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Tobin »

Equality wrote:
Tobin wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I tend to believe the Lord and what he taught as stated by Luke. And if the Lords anointed have a problem with that, then are they really the Lord's anointed?

And how do you know that what Luke said the Lord said wasn't one of those things that was just the product of Luke's own limited understanding and not something the Lord actually said? Maybe what the Lord said was totally different, but Jesus just didn't want to correct it because, you know, he didn't want to make Luke his sock puppet.
Then why don't you ask him and make your own determination? I'm comfortable with my position.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Tobin wrote:Then why don't you ask him and make your own determination? I'm comfortable with my position.


Warren Jeffs is comfortable with his position, too.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Themis
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:You are welcome to your opinions. However, I have the view that this is very Mormon in its approach and exactly how investigators of the Church are challenged. They aren't asked to accept the claims of the Book of Mormon (and Mormonism) simply because the missionaries, TSM, or Joseph Smith says so. They are asked to speak with God and make their own determination. This is in essence all that Mormonism is and should be about.


I have never meet a missionary or member who tells investigators that God will show up, but that they can experience the HG who is responsible for teaching truth to people. Interesting we agree that the HG does not really work in this regard.
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_Chap
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Chap »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Tobin wrote:Then why don't you ask him and make your own determination? I'm comfortable with my position.


Warren Jeffs is comfortable with his position, too.


Yeah, but he isn't speaking to the right guy. You have to check that the one you talk to is rather tubby, furry with black patches round the eyes, and chews on bamboo all the time.

Extra Pandam nulla salus.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Darth J
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:
Anyway, Joseph Smith's Bible Fanfic doesn't so much as "point out variations in human morphology" as attribute variations in human morphology to divine retribution for sin.


The "curse" set upon the descendents of Laman and Lemuel, for their rebellion against God and treatment of their father, an authorized and chosen prophet of the Lord, was a curse of cultural separation, as well as of the cultural degeneration experienced by that lineage in comparison and contrast to the high civilization of the Nephites.

Those changes attributable to a certain branch of the Lamanites were symbolic of their spiritual state and the cultural changes that are the outward manifestation (on a societal scale) of that spiritual state. Interestingly, the same changes did not come upon other of the Nephites, even when they became more wicked than the Lamanites, and the Lamanites skin color did not change when they became righteous, and indeed, more righteous than the Nephites. Follow this through to the obvious: skin colore alterations, in the Book of Mormon, are both signifiers of spiritual, moral, and cultural attributes, and, at the same time, not signifiers of such attributes. Samual the Lamanite was a righteous Lamanite prophet nearly murdered in cold blood by the Nephites at the bottom of one of their "pride cycles," but his skin was still dark.


In summary: God gave the Lamanites a dark skin because they were wicked. And why do you have "curse" in scare quotes? That is the word that the Book of Mormon consistently uses.

Also, the Book of Mormon never says anything about Samuel the Lamanite's skin color. It only says he was a Lamanite, but we know there were white Lamanites. Like Zelph, for example. Why wouldn't Samuel have turned white when he became righteous, like that Navajo kid that Spencer W. Kimball told us about?

And the Nephites, in the abyss of cultural decline, were still light skinned.


In fact, according to the tenets of the Restored Gospel, there have only been two peoples in the history of the world who have been cursed with a dark skin because of sin: the Native Americans and the Negroes.

Even more interestingly, the Book of Mormon itself relates dire warnings to those who engage in ethnocentric bigotry. Jacob 3:9 warns:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.


Yes, Jacob certainly dispels the notion that the Book of Mormon equates skin color with righteousness. Especially in the preceding verse:

O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.

You and others here, steeped in the modernist superstitions of political correctness, insist on associating phenomena like skin color with race, but there is no concept of "race" in the Book of Mormon (unlike the 19th century culture in which the Book of Mormon was written). There is no doctrine, teaching, or attitude within the Book of Mormon that imputes, innate, inherent deficiencies, moral, intellectual, or psychological, to the Lamanites, nor any inherent superiority associated with being a Nephite or having lighter skin. The only deficiency attributed to them, ever, is that of the cultural/moral state of their society brought about by the "traditions of their fathers" to which they were wedded through cultural transmission and socialization.


3 Nephi 2:15

And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;

The problem with the Nephites, in other words, was sin, and any morphological changes were only a symbolic marker - a warning to the Nephites - that cultural integration with them would mean abandonment of Nephite culture, to the extent Nephite culture was representative of the gospel.

Sin and cultural deterioration of exactly the same kind brought about exactly the same consequences when the Nephites engaged in it as for the Lamanites.


But you just said the Nephites did not turn dark-skinned when they were in the abyss of cultural decline.

There is, fascinatingly, not a sentence of racism in the entire book (any claim that the Lamanites were innately inferior, sub-human, or of an inherently lower order), but only claims regarding their behavior, attitudes, and culture.

Strange, it is, that the Book of Mormon is the antithesis of the white racism of the 19th century, as well as the sanctified intellectual national socialism of contemporary multiculturalism.

It denies them both.


Why, of course! Sin is not the result of dark skin. Rather, dark skin is the result of sin. Certainly nobody in the 19th-century thought that the dark-skinned natives were loathsome and lazy and primitive, as the Book of Mormon describes their forefathers.

And did you really just say that multiculturalism is national socialism? Because if there was one thing the Nazis were known for, it was multiculturalism.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Darth J
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:
How is it Droopy unfailingly demonstrates his ignorance of his own religion, and never catches on it's better to be thought a fool rather than post on MDB and remove all doubt?



Its called "intermarriage," and it doesn't take a great quantity of intelligence to determine for oneself that some groups of Lamanties engaged in it while others did not.

It really isn't that difficult for an intellectually honest interlocutor.

But that's hard to come by these days.


Unfortunately, as Dr. Cam pointed out, this all happened in one year (between the 13th and 14th year from the sign of Christ's birth being given), despite your desire to have a supernatural explanation for the source of the curse, but a naturalistic source of its removal. And the Book of Mormon specifically says that it was the Lamanites who joined the Nephites who turned white, not their offspring.

3 Nephi 2

13 And it came to pass that before this thirteenth year had passed away the Nephites were threatened with utter destruction because of this war, which had become exceedingly sore.

14 And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;

15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;

16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year.


Is it your understanding of genetics that when a dark-skinned person marries a white-skinned person, it makes the dark-skinned spouse turn white? As well as their already-born young men and daughters? Is it generally true that the offspring of mixed marriages are white like unto the white-skinned parent?

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_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Darth J wrote:Is it your understanding of genetics that when a dark-skinned person marries a white-skinned person, it makes the dark-skinned spouse turn white? As well as their already-born young men and daughters? Is it generally true that the offspring of mixed marriages are white like unto the white-skinned parent?


Darth, everyone knows that the laws of genetics do not count when one needs to defend a religious text. What's cool about Droopy is that he manages to add condescension to the drivel, just to make himself look that much more the buffoon.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Darth J
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Re: Think racism isn't taught to Mormon kids? Think again.

Post by _Darth J »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Darth J wrote:Is it your understanding of genetics that when a dark-skinned person marries a white-skinned person, it makes the dark-skinned spouse turn white? As well as their already-born young men and daughters? Is it generally true that the offspring of mixed marriages are white like unto the white-skinned parent?


Darth, everyone knows that the laws of genetics do not count when one needs to defend a religious text. What's cool about Droopy is that he manages to add condescension to the drivel, just to make himself look that much more the buffoon.


Another problem when you have to defend a religious text within the framework of a political ideology is that rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic thing. The bigger problem for the Book of Mormon isn't whether it's politically correct, but whether it is a childish fable. It reminds me of Rudyard Kipling's Just So Stories. "How the Whale Got His Throat." "How the Camel Got His Hump." And we can add, "How the Indians Got Dark Skin."

To be fair, thought, there are competing theories about how the Lamanites got their dark skin.
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