Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Cicero
_Emeritus
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:09 am

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _Cicero »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Priestcraft? Oh brother. It seems to me that the FARMS crowd should be more concerned about their own near-brushes with priestcraft.


For people who are supposedly "open-minded" about the church, they sure circled the wagons quickly.


Agreed, it was a bit creepy. I really wish John would tell people to stop using the term "Dehlinite."

All that being said, this article was a very easy target to attack . . . and it was somewhat encouraging to see that a lot of John's friends on Facebook challenged him/called him out for telling people to criticize the article.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _Kishkumen »

Cicero wrote:Agreed, it was a bit creepy. I really wish John would tell people to stop using the term "Dehlinite."

All that being said, this article was a very easy target to attack . . . and it was somewhat encouraging to see that a lot of John's friends on Facebook challenged him/called him out for telling people to criticize the article.


What I found and continue to find creepy was/is the orchestrated attack against liberal Mormons in various publications and blogs connected with the Maxwell Institute or supportive of its aims, as well as the efforts to spy on John Dehlin through his Facebook page to provide material to post on the FAIRwiki as well as, presumably, to supply Greg Smith with raw material for a 100+-page article aimed at John Dehlin personally.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _consiglieri »

Kishkumen wrote:
consiglieri wrote:Though a tactical error, this one observation in her article at least had the unique advantage of being honest.


Oh, I bet her implicit critique of gay-straight alliance groups as trivial and morally insipid was also honest, albeit repugnant.


Actually, what I meant by "honest" was a view that corresponds more fully with reality.

She seems to be making some tacit digs at the LDS Church in her article, as well. Not only does she compare the departure stories as every bit as rote as LDS testimonies, she also levels a criticism ahgainst "Mormon Stories" that is just as apropos to Mormonism.

If the "contradiction" at the heart of "Mormon Stories" is having a "support community" which also allows for "self expression," can we not say the same would hold for any (and every) community, including the LDS Church?

And as a faithful member of the LDS Church, is not Rosalynde similarly constrained in her self expression by the needs of the community to which she belongs?

In this way, Rosalynde has eviscerated her own argument while attempting to do the same to "Mormon Stories."

I see this as the contradiction at the heart of Rosalynde's article.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _consiglieri »

Kishkumen wrote: . . . presumably, to supply Greg Smith with raw material for a 100+-page article aimed at John Dehlin personally.


The thought did cross my mind as to whether Rosalynde's article was merely "prologue to the omen coming on."
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _Droopy »

and in any case I am one who doubts that anything like authentic self-expression—or even anything like an "authentic self"—actually exists.


For once, Kishkumen, you may actually have stumbled upon a nut. This actually smacks of postmodernism to me, or perhaps one of its antecedents (The non-existence of an authentic subject, a core self, would fit well with Satre or Nietzsche). I'd have to hear Welch flesh that out a bit more, however, before coming to any clear conclusions about it.

But conceding for the sake of argument that some kind of personal communication can spring directly from the soul, unmediated by environment or exigency, surely a vibrant social community is the last place one would expect to find such authentic expression.


Indeed, revelation from God is precisely this kind of communication.

A social community is nothing more than a source of mediating narratives, names, and norms that exist precisely to shape the substrate of basic human perception into meaningful experience.


Yeah, yeah, she talks like me, but that's not important now...

If "authentic" expression is language that arises directly from an unadulterated private conscience, then expression from within a community can only be seen as artificially mediated—it's simply the nature of the thing.


I'm not sure if Dehlin really meant to take it this far. Whatever the merits of Welch's arguments here (and I'm not exactly sure what she's trying to say), Dehlin has created a kind of community outreach or group therapeutic community to mediate and cushion exit from the Church. By "authentic," I'm sure Dehlin simply means to say the true, internalized desires, beliefs, and settled position a person takes within himself, detached from external pressures and forces of resistance such as the psychological resistance and challenge to apostasy one is going to receive from peers and family.

In any case, Welch's argument above is a non-sequiter as it stands. There's a philosophical system or assumption behind it, but its not here stated. At best, the argument is missing a premise or premises connecting "authentic expression" as being " language that arises directly from an unadulterated private conscience" with the assertion that "expression from within a community can only be seen as artificially mediated." There is no obvious reason why deeply and clearly (in one's own mind) settled desires or beliefs cannot be fully expressed within a community without artificial mediation, if by artificial mediation she means that one's ideas cannot be expressed as an authentic reflection of the core self unless the community in some sense allows it.

Or, perhaps she means that language itself does not allow authentic self expression outside the boundaries of the cultural and psychological constraints imposed by that language. This would be an interesting, if severely constrained position to take, but I'm still not sure it would be relevant to Dehlin's project, which is just one of a shepard leading and guiding apostatizing lambs. If Welch is a Latter day Saint, then the idea that no authentic self, or subject, actually exists, and that undiluted, authentic, internal self expression from an actually existing "self" or "I" is impossible, even in the most "vibrant" and supportive communities, would appear to me to be both a high fly ball outside Church doctrine, as well as philosophically and psychologically gummy.

This does not mean that language does not condition and mediate mind and thought, only that mind and thought condition and mediate language and constrain its own powers of mediation.

Duh. The point, in my view, is not that there is an authentic self--your common tactic of Mopologetic nitpicking--but that in the Mormon Stories community people have the freedom to say things that they were unable to say in an LDS ward.


Pure nonsense, of course. You are free to say anything you want in your ward. As perfectly free as you are out in the street. In Dehlin's support group atmosphere, however, you will never be challenged or confronted with any faulty arguments, self serving rationalizations, or mistaken perceptions. Dehlin is there as a facilitator of one's desire to leave the Church, not, as one will find in most wards, a member who is critically concerned about the welfare of anther's soul and will do all he can to persuade and dissuade one from exiting the Lord's Kingdom.

Of course, most of us understand this, but LDS apologetics is all about nitpicking on issues of terminology, as in the case of their disagreement with John's loose use of the term "ad hominem." In the latter case, we all understand that John is referring to the personal attacks that are perpetrated in apologetic material, but the apologetic dodge is to say, "that's not what ad hominem means." Hardy-har.


An actual example of this "personal attack" tradition against the fragile Bro. Dehlin would be welcome here, at this point (after weeks of breathing fire and coughing up rhetorical phlegm among the critics).

Anyhow, we will undoubtedly continue to see much more of these impertinent pseudo-arguments against John Dehlin and Mormon Stories. Keep your eyes out for them, if you can stomach the sad spectacle.


Dehlin is a liberal/secular apostate with a smiling face and his cheeks covered with Dixie Cup flowers. We know this at this juncture. You are attempting to defend him because, despite all of the stomping the ground and snorting you do, you like and support what he does, and if he was not an apostate who's core purpose was the degradation and destruction of belief, faith, and commitment to the Church, you wouldn't be bothering with him at all.

The defense of John Dehlin by the vast body of the Internet exmo/Post-Mormon world is Dehlin's own accuser.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _consiglieri »

Droopy wrote:The defense of John Dehlin by the vast body of the Internet exmo/Post-Mormon world is Dehlin's own accuser.


So what does that make you, Droopy?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _harmony »

Droopy wrote: You are free to say anything you want in your ward.


This is absolute balderdash. And shows exactly how long it's been since you were in an LDS ward.

Good grief.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _Droopy »

harmony wrote:
Droopy wrote: You are free to say anything you want in your ward.


This is absolute balderdash. And shows exactly how long it's been since you were in an LDS ward.

Good grief.



I just went to church yesterday and taught the investigators class, as I often do as the branch missionary. I've been a member since the crib, and probably been to more church meetings than you've been to NOW mother-daughter camp-outs.

Someone like you, Harmony, who is utterly in disharmony and dissent from virtually every core doctrine and teaching of the Church, is certain to feel the great, black boot of disagreement with your view of the world, when you openly express it. Most members of your ward would probably wonder, were you to fully disclose your true feelings and beliefs, what on earth you are doing in the Church at all. I could understand that. But there is no restriction on your freedom to speak your mind. Just get up at the next fast and testimony meeting and tell the entire ward how you really feel about the Church, the Brethren, Joseph, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham etc., and you'll see that if you don't make a big, emotional scene, or ramble on forever, they'll let you finish.

You won't, I admit, get the same reception you'd receive at Dehlin's group therapy club, but you'd be free to speak your mind. I've heard members say crazy stuff in church. They're challenged on it, as would not happen in Dehlin's world, but they're free to speak.

This is why, long ago, I determined that you had never been a Mormon at all. We're it not for Jason, I'd still believe that, so unfamiliar you seem with both Church doctrine and culture.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _harmony »

Droopy wrote:I just went to church yesterday and taught the investigators class, as I often do as the branch missionary. I've been a member since the crib, and probably been to more church meetings than you've been to NOW mother-daughter camp-outs.


40 years plus, Droopy. Every single one of them as an active temple recommend holding multiple calling fulfilling full tithe paying member. Can you say the same? I'll be in the temple before you are, I suspect.

Someone like you, Harmony, who is utterly in disharmony and dissent from virtually every core doctrine and teaching of the Church, is certain to feel the great, black boot of disagreement with your view of the world, when you openly express it.


Actually, I am asked to speak often, and when bearing my testimony, witness many who feel the spirit of my words.

Don't go where you know nothing, Droopy. I'm fully active and have been for 40 years. And when I am not there, they feel my absence. They mourn for the pain I live with, and wish I was able to participate more fully.

Most members of your ward would probably wonder, were you to fully disclose your true feelings and beliefs, what on earth you are doing in the Church at all.


All members of my ward know me, Droopy. All of them, from my bishop to my home teachers (one of whom is my bishop's 15 year old son.). They know my feelings, my heart, the incredible strength of my testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But there is no restriction on your freedom to speak your mind. Just get up at the next fast and testimony meeting and tell the entire ward how you really feel about the Church, the Brethren, Joseph, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham etc., and you'll see that if you don't make a big, emotional scene, or ramble on forever, they'll let you finish.


Of course they'd let me finish. They know what sincere love for them looks like; they know what wisdom looks like. They know I'm the one they call on when they have a problem with a wayward teenager, when they are heartbroken over a husband who has fallen off the wagon, when they need an ear for joy or grief. That is the role I fill in my ward, Droopy. Deal with it. Just because my testimony is a bit unconventional doesn't mean I am not of use and help to my ward family.

You won't, I admit, get the same reception you'd receive at Dehlin's group therapy club, but you'd be free to speak your mind. I've heard members say crazy stuff in church. They're challenged on it, as would not happen in Dehlin's world, but they're free to speak.


I was invited to be part of Dehlin's podcast once. I declined due to not wanting to let the Droopy's of world know who and where I am. Dan? He knows both, as do several others here. He respects my wishes and remains silent.

This is why, long ago, I determined that you had never been a Mormon at all. We're it not for Jason, I'd still believe that, so unfamiliar you seem with both Church doctrine and culture.


I've been an active member for far longer than the Droopy's of the world, and totally uninterrupted. Now try to stay on topic (hint: harmony is not the topic of this thread.)
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:For once, Kishkumen, you may actually have stumbled upon a nut. This actually smacks of postmodernism to me, or perhaps one of its antecedents (The non-existence of an authentic subject, a core self, would fit well with Satre or Nietzsche). I'd have to hear Welch flesh that out a bit more, however, before coming to any clear conclusions about it.


I am inclined to think so too, but then I have long known about the use of postmodernism in the service of apologetics. I am pleased to see you concede the possibility that this is actually the case.

Whatever the merits of Welch's arguments here (and I'm not exactly sure what she's trying to say), Dehlin has created a kind of community outreach or group therapeutic community to mediate and cushion exit from the Church.


Or to help them remain members, as the case may be and sometimes is.

Pure nonsense, of course. You are free to say anything you want in your ward. As perfectly free as you are out in the street. In Dehlin's support group atmosphere, however, you will never be challenged or confronted with any faulty arguments, self serving rationalizations, or mistaken perceptions. Dehlin is there as a facilitator of one's desire to leave the Church, not, as one will find in most wards, a member who is critically concerned about the welfare of anther's soul and will do all he can to persuade and dissuade one from exiting the Lord's Kingdom.


Sure, Droopy. Anyone is free to say whatever they want, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences. This was as true in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany as it is in Mormon Stories or an LDS ward. Not a lot of doubting LDS people feel comfortable facing the consequences in their ward. Not many LDS apologists are comfortable facing the consequences here. You are a special breed. Please take that as a compliment.

An actual example of this "personal attack" tradition against the fragile Bro. Dehlin would be welcome here, at this point (after weeks of breathing fire and coughing up rhetorical phlegm among the critics).


Why? None was intimated nor promised in my post. What are you proving by demanding that I produce one?

Dehlin is a liberal/secular apostate with a smiling face and his cheeks covered with Dixie Cup flowers. We know this at this juncture. You are attempting to defend him because, despite all of the stomping the ground and snorting you do, you like and support what he does, and if he was not an apostate who's core purpose was the degradation and destruction of belief, faith, and commitment to the Church, you wouldn't be bothering with him at all.

The defense of John Dehlin by the vast body of the Internet exmo/Post-Mormon world is Dehlin's own accuser.


As surprising as this may sound, I don't altogether disagree with you, Droopy. But here's the rub: that is for his bishop to handle. As I understand it, he is. What I am defending is the one resource on Mormonism that was as open to an appearance of Daniel Peterson as it was to one by Mr. Born Again Mormon. If it were up to your apologist friends, no doubt such a place would not exist. That is because at heart they are far less tolerant of free speech than the people they are attacking. You know that is true. You ought to admit it. After all, they have sent you packing more than once.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Post Reply