Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race

[_Themis]

And very telling that it wasn't God, but a group of people who claimed they were chosen over others. This really is not that difficult to see you know.

The Bible is basically about the jewish people and their relationship to god. Now of course, the jews believed that they were chosen and superior to all others and treated their neighbors accordingly. And god did not exactly discourage them from believing so. And the end product is still being played out on the west bank where the chosen people are still claiming palestinian land for themselves because the Bible says that it is their land, the land of the chosen people.

I suppose I missed these signs when I was a believer as you are now.

[_Darth J]

Yes, I see quite clearly that you are a blind, lurching ideologue who thinks your intellectually castrated ideological cliches are going to buy you acceptance and accolades in the great and spacious culture club with the other hip and smart people.

People in that club not only point fingers of derision but will tumble 4 ya.

I can't wait for Boy George to be in charge of the politburo!

[_Cylon]

Ok, darth, now come close to your computer because I want to whisper something in your ear...okay...no, come closer...yea, that's right...I don't want the others to hear this...ready? Joseph, who translated the book may not have known who these people were. Unless of course, god told him the information that he repeated in the Wentworth letter. But I see no proof of this at all. I think that the people had this book and they had to make interpretations of it and hope for the best.

Ah, yes. The mopologist's favorite tactic. "Joseph/Brigham/choose your favorite dead prophet" just didn't know what he was talking about. But just about this one thing. He got everything else right. Until the next time he didn't know what he was talking about, as defined by me.

The Bible is basically about the jewish people and their relationship to god. Now of course, the jews believed that they were chosen and superior to all others and treated their neighbors accordingly. And god did not exactly discourage them from believing so. And the end product is still being played out on the west bank where the chosen people are still claiming palestinian land for themselves because the Bible says that it is their land, the land of the chosen people.

Wait, wait, wait. Have we entered some bizarro-world where why me is making the apostates' arguments for them? Seriously, bro, you're not helping your case here.

[_SteelHead]

Why me,
So when Joseph writes that the angel Moroni told him the American Indians were the children of Abraham.... Did Joseph misunderstand the angel, or did Moroni yet it wrong?

[_DarkHelmet]

Why me,
So when Joseph writes that the angel Moroni told him the American Indians were the children of Abraham.... Did Joseph misunderstand the angel, or did Moroni yet it wrong?

That last post by why me was a mess. First he thinks he is quoting Darth J, when in fact he is quoting his fellow TBM, Droopy. Then he proceeds to debate Droopy (while thinking he is debating Darth J) and his argument is that Joseph Smith didn't know who the Lamanites were. And he says he sees no evidence that God told Joseph Smith who the Lamanites are, despite the Angel Moroni telling him who they are when he visited and instructed Joseph Smith, and despite God referring to the Native Americans as Lamanites when talking to Joseph Smith as recorded in the D&C. But I guess we have no real evidence that Joseph Smith knew who the Lamanites were.

[_brade]

Why me,
So when Joseph writes that the angel Moroni told him the American Indians were the children of Abraham.... Did Joseph misunderstand the angel, or did Moroni yet it wrong?

That last post by why me was a mess. First he thinks he is quoting Darth J, when in fact he is quoting his fellow TBM, Droopy. Then he proceeds to debate Droopy (while thinking he is debating Darth J) and his argument is that Joseph Smith didn't know who the Lamanites were. And he says he sees no evidence that God told Joseph Smith who the Lamanites are, despite the Angel Moroni telling him who they are when he visited and instructed Joseph Smith, and despite God referring to the Native Americans as Lamanites when talking to Joseph Smith as recorded in the D&C. But I guess we have no real evidence that Joseph Smith knew who the Lamanites were.

This isn't so far fetched. You know, it's like how Joseph Smith mistakenly thought the text of the Book of Abraham was on the papyri he had, but, really, god was revealing the text directly to him, but he didn't know it.

[_SteelHead]

My head asplode!!!





Thanks Brade

[_Equality]

Joseph, who translated the book may not have known who these people were. Unless of course, god told him the information that he repeated in the Wentworth letter. But I see no proof of this at all. I think that the people had this book and they had to make interpretations of it and hope for the best.

And here is your proof from An Official Church Publication that God told Joseph Smith the information he repeated in the Wentworth Letter, and that Joseph, who translated the book, did know who these people were:

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/2002/07/the-w ... r?lang=eng

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America] and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was [also] made known unto me; I was also told where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent. The angel appeared to me three times the same night and unfolded the same things. After having received many visits from the angels of God, unfolding the majesty and glory of the events that should transpire in the last days, on the morning of the 22nd of September, A.D. 1827, the angel of the Lord delivered the records into my hands.

But it's not like I cited that on the first page of this thread or anything.

There may be a remedial English class for adults in your area, Why Me. Perhaps developing some semblance of reading comprehension would be a good way for you to spend your free time.

Don't forget Joseph's mother's report as well:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cites, their buildings with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.

Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith, page 85.

Why don't these apologists know basic facts about the religion for which they argue so assiduously in favor?

[_DarkHelmet]

There may be a remedial English class for adults in your area, Why Me. Perhaps developing some semblance of reading comprehension would be a good way for you to spend your free time.

That would help. But it would also help if he actually went to church and learned what Mormons believe. It is obvious he only has a primary level understanding of church doctrine, and is completely out of touch with LDS culture. It would be like if I decided to become a Scientology apologist, yet I am not a Scientologist and only know the basics of what they believe or teach. How could I effectively debate Scientology with ex-Scientologists who spent decades immersed in their teachings?

[_SteelHead]

When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed I had not been asleep,
.
.
.
.
all at once the room was illuminated above the brightness of the sun an angel appeared before me … he said unto me I am a messenger sent from God, be faithful and keep his commandments in all things, he told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, Journal, 1832-1842, edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, copyright 1992 Corporation of the President, pp. 69-70, emphasis added).

So before Joseph even engaged in the work of the translation, he was told by a divine being straight out of the presence of god, that the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham.

And for a little context on literal descendant

D&C 107:40 The order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son, and rightly belongs to the literal descendants of the chosen seed, to whom the promises were made.

Kind of blows why me's ramblings all out of the water.