Dear Droopy: Joseph Smith said the Lamanites are a race

[_Droopy]

Droopy! How delightful to hear from you. I was concerned that you would only join in this thread if it was about Master Mahan, a.k.a. John Dehlin. I was so happy to read another of your usual eloquent and well-reasoned posts.

Master Mahan? Uh...right.

For me, a much better analogy would be Kaa from Disney's Jungle Book.



Trust in me, just in me
Close your mind and trust in me
On my pod safe and sound
No apologists around

Slip out of Mormon teaching
Through Mormonstories mist
Watch as your testimony
Just ceases to exist

Trust in me, arm of flesh
Even though, its quite a stretch

On a completely unrelated note, I hate it when you're drinking something, and you start laughing so hard that it comes out your nose.

This just places you here in the Trailerpark - right where you belong.

Oh, Droopy. It's too bad that you don't know more about our church. The passages I quoted are from the famous Wentworth Letter. Here is it is printed in the July 2002 Ensign, an official publication of the Church on its official website, copyright Intellectual Reserve, Inc.:

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/2002/07/the-w ... r?lang=eng

I'm not sure what this is supposed to change. If the Jaradites were genetically related to the other tribes of Israel, then they were of the same general ancient Near Eastern cultural milieu. I'll concede the point that they weren't a part of the 12 tribes per se, but this alters nothing regarding my central point that the Book of Mormon contains no concept of "race," nor is Joseph here using it in its ideological sense, as we would understand it today, but in its very broad anthropological sense that would just correspond to "nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples"

The Nephites and Jaradites were clearly not a different "race" in the modern sense in Joseph's mind, nor in the Book of Mormon. They were a different kindred and people.

It's also unfortunate that you are able to think and express yourself only in terms of talking points---in this instance, the contrived Mopologist trope of "official doctrine." Whether the Prophet's remarks are "official doctrine" under the artifice invented by Mopolgists is irrelevant

If you are having any difficulty with the concept of "official," find yourself a dictionary.

(even though, by the Anonymous Press Release on Approaching Mormon Doctrine standard, it is official doctrine). What matters is that God's Chosen Seer recognized the scripture he translated by divine power as referring to races of people. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to call the Lamanites a "race."

Fallacy of equivocation. The question here is the definition and coloration of the term "race," as used by Joseph in his one mind and in the context of the Book of Mormon as he understood it, not that he used the term. Joseph, and modern LDS scripture, use the term "race" interchangeably with "nation," "people," or "ethnic group," while you are attempting to impose the meaning of "a distinct sub-type of human being," set apart from other types by innate inferiorities and limitations.

No such idea exists in LDS scripture or settled, official teaching.

In other words, contrary to your previous assertions, the Book of Mormon does refer to "race," which even Joseph Smith recognized.

He used the term, but, as I've already shown umpteen times, he did not use it as a term denoting distinct and inferior sub-types of human being, but simply as varied and disparate groups of human beings of different nationalities and ethnic extraction. The Nephites and Lamanites were exactly and precisely the same people, two distinct branches of which looked somewhat different (both because of skin color, and because of clothing and body adornment).

Alternatively, would you be willing to admit that the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior or the homosexual lifestyle, since the word "homosexual" never appears in the scriptures, and the ancient prophets would not have understood "homosexuality" the way we do today?

Weak logical analogy. The term translated as "effeminate" in Timothy corresponds to a certain group of male homosexuals who behave in an open and sometimes extroverted feminine manner. Paul doesn't mention the term (as it may not have existed at the time in its present form), but describes the behavior and mental state surrounding it explicitly. The word translated as "fornication" throughout the New Testament encompasses all forms of sexual immorality outside the boundaries of marriage as understood in the gospel and as ordained of God, including homosexual conduct.

Joseph Smith said that the American Indians originated with a loathsome, indolent people who were cursed with a dark skin because of their sinful ways.

There are others as well, and some are among us now. Joseph wasn't singling anyone out, I can assure you.

As of yet, you still have not made your case. There is no mention in the Book of Mormon of "race" in the modern sense, nor any teaching regarding any innate or inherent inferiority between the Nephites or Lamanites based on anything but culture and behavior.

No, there is no mention of "race" in the Book of Mormon. There is, instead, mention of characteristics that a modern person recognizes as comprising "race,"

This is called "presentism," and its a grave sin when apologists are claimed to have indulged in it.

...as the Prophet Joseph Smith acknowledged. And there is, in fact, resplendent teaching in the Book of Mormon that the unrepentant Lamanites are culturally inferior to the Nephites, and the Lamanites have been cursed with a dark skin as a sign of their inferiority.

Outstanding! We now agree! You have just agreed, in core substance, with my entire argument, creamcorned your own, and made the very point I've been trying to make since I entered this thread. Cultural inferiority, no matter how "marked" is not racism, at least in any sense in which the word makes since within the context of old Southern pro-slavery arguments, white supremacist doctrine, black power ideology, or critical race theory.

Also, you appear to be having a hard time understanding cause and effect regarding the Lamanite curse. The Lamanites were not inferior because they had a dark skin. They were given a dark skin because they were inferior. When they became righteous, their skin became white.

1. They were not inferior as human beings. They were wicked as a people. Again, you engage in what I suspect to be knowing equivocation in your use to terms in an attempt to grease the skids that the lack of logical consistency and rigor in your argument cannot otherwise do. It won't work Darth. Resistance is futile.

Sometimes the Lamanites became lighter skinned, through obvious genetic intermingling with the Nephites. At other times, they clearly did not (the righteous Lamanites and their prophet Samuel, in the Book of Helaman).

The "curse," it must be remembered, is not marker itself, but that which it signifies, which is a culture and traditions hostile to the gospel. Otherwise, Jacob never would have said:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers. (Jacob 3:9)

For actual racists, skin color itself connotes innate, essential inferiority. The ancient Egyptians were dark skinned, and they were to some extent related to other black Africans in a genetic sense, and they had a high, technologically and intellectually advanced culture. A racist would would be dumbfounded by this, but the Book of Abraham never states that the Egyptian people were innately inferior, or that there culture was a waste of time. Indeed, the Egyptians had wisdom, but not priesthood; they didn't have the gospel among them, and had they, they would have needed priesthood holders from outside their ethnic/genetic group to officiate in any ordinances.

The Lamanties of the time, due to their rebellion against God and hostility to the culture of Zion, could have had priesthood, but didn't have either wisdom or the gospel. Its all about culture and what lies in the heart. Its only about race to you and others like you who lie in wait to deceive and offend for each and every spoken or written word.

- Snip sophistical courtroomesque red herrings and diversionary drivel that has already been answered time and again-

[_ludwigm]

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[_Darth J]

Droopy! How delightful to hear from you. I was concerned that you would only join in this thread if it was about Master Mahan, a.k.a. John Dehlin. I was so happy to read another of your usual eloquent and well-reasoned posts.

Master Mahan? Uh...right.

For me, a much better analogy would be Kaa from Disney's Jungle Book.

Well certainly we can agree that some guy with a podcast is worthy of a 100-page article in a scholarly journal from a major university that deserves to be taken seriously by the outside world.

On a completely unrelated note, I hate it when you're drinking something, and you start laughing so hard that it comes out your nose.

This just places you here in the Trailerpark - right where you belong.

Oh, don't worry. That comment was apropos of nothing. I always recognize the gravitas and serious intellectual rigor you bring to the table. I have never thought of you as a hilarious exercise in self-parody.

Oh, Droopy. It's too bad that you don't know more about our church. The passages I quoted are from the famous Wentworth Letter. Here is it is printed in the July 2002 Ensign, an official publication of the Church on its official website, copyright Intellectual Reserve, Inc.:

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/2002/07/the-w ... r?lang=eng

I'm not sure what this is supposed to change. If the Jaradites were genetically related to the other tribes of Israel, then they were of the same general ancient Near Eastern cultural milieu.

That's right, Droopy. "Near Eastern" is a genotype. And bravo for wanting to put the conceit that the Tower of Babel is a true story in a serious scientific context.

I'll concede the point that they weren't a part of the 12 tribes per se,

Or not part of the 12 tribes AT ALL, since Jacob was supposed to have significantly after the Tower of Babel, and the Jaredites were supposedly on the other side of the world when Jacob would have existed. Those stories about Jacob and the origins of the Israelites are totally true, by the way.

but this alters nothing regarding my central point that the Book of Mormon contains no concept of "race," nor is Joseph here using it in its ideological sense, as we would understand it today, but in its very broad anthropological sense that would just correspond to "nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples"

Your central point was that the Book of Mormon does not talk about race, period. But if the Book of Mormon is talking about race in its very broad anthropological sense that would just correspond to "nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples," then by your own concession, the Book of Mormon does contain a concept of race.

And the thing is, nobody in this thread except you is alluding to race in some ideological sense.

The Nephites and Jaradites were clearly not a different "race" in the modern sense in Joseph's mind, nor in the Book of Mormon. They were a different kindred and people.

The modern sense of "race" is its very broad anthropological sense that would just correspond to "nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples." Is it maybe your preoccupation with the monsters under your bed that is causing you to infer that race means anything else? Nothing in the OP defines race any differently than as you have conceded.

It's also unfortunate that you are able to think and express yourself only in terms of talking points---in this instance, the contrived Mopologist trope of "official doctrine." Whether the Prophet's remarks are "official doctrine" under the artifice invented by Mopolgists is irrelevant

If you are having any difficulty with the concept of "official," find yourself a dictionary.

I have an even better idea. Find me where and when the LDS Church started using the term "official doctrine" as a term of art. But as far as the meaning of "official," the Times and Seasons was an official newspaper of Joseph Smith's church, and the Ensign is an official magazine of the Salt Lake City-based church that claims to be the continuation of Joseph Smith's church.

(even though, by the Anonymous Press Release on Approaching Mormon Doctrine standard, it is official doctrine). What matters is that God's Chosen Seer recognized the scripture he translated by divine power as referring to races of people. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to call the Lamanites a "race."

Fallacy of equivocation. The question here is the definition and coloration of the term "race," as used by Joseph in his one mind and in the context of the Book of Mormon as he understood it, not that he used the term. Joseph, and modern LDS scripture, use the term "race" interchangeably with "nation," "people," or "ethnic group," while you are attempting to impose the meaning of "a distinct sub-type of human being," set apart from other types by innate inferiorities and limitations.

No such idea exists in LDS scripture or settled, official teaching.

To our readers at home: for 50 bonus points, find where I said or implied that "race" means "a distinct sub-type of human being."

In other words, contrary to your previous assertions, the Book of Mormon does refer to "race," which even Joseph Smith recognized.

He used the term, but, as I've already shown umpteen times, he did not use it as a term denoting distinct and inferior sub-types of human being, but simply as varied and disparate groups of human beings of different nationalities and ethnic extraction. The Nephites and Lamanites were exactly and precisely the same people, two distinct branches of which looked somewhat different (both because of skin color, and because of clothing and body adornment).

Focus, Droopy. Focus. American Indians. The Lamanites are the American Indians.

Alternatively, would you be willing to admit that the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior or the homosexual lifestyle, since the word "homosexual" never appears in the scriptures, and the ancient prophets would not have understood "homosexuality" the way we do today?

Weak logical analogy. The term translated as "effeminate" in Timothy corresponds to a certain group of male homosexuals who behave in an open and sometimes extroverted feminine manner. Paul doesn't mention the term (as it may not have existed at the time in its present form), but describes the behavior and mental state surrounding it explicitly. The word translated as "fornication" throughout the New Testament encompasses all forms of sexual immorality outside the boundaries of marriage as understood in the gospel and as ordained of God, including homosexual conduct.

In summary: the word "homosexual" never appears in the scriptures, and the ancient prophets would not have understood "homosexuality" the way we do today.

Joseph Smith said that the American Indians originated with a loathsome, indolent people who were cursed with a dark skin because of their sinful ways.

There are others as well, and some are among us now. Joseph wasn't singling anyone out, I can assure you.

Would you be willing to specify which are the other peoples among us today who are loathsome, indolent, and cursed with a dark skin because of their sinful ways?

No, there is no mention of "race" in the Book of Mormon. There is, instead, mention of characteristics that a modern person recognizes as comprising "race,"

This is called "presentism," and its a grave sin when apologists are claimed to have indulged in it.

Oh, so when I said "a modern person" in reference to Joseph Smith, you don't believe that Joseph Smith was a modern person. When we talk about "modern prophets and apostles," we're excluding him, then.

...as the Prophet Joseph Smith acknowledged. And there is, in fact, resplendent teaching in the Book of Mormon that the unrepentant Lamanites are culturally inferior to the Nephites, and the Lamanites have been cursed with a dark skin as a sign of their inferiority.

Outstanding! We now agree! You have just agreed, in core substance, with my entire argument, creamcorned your own, and made the very point I've been trying to make since I entered this thread. Cultural inferiority, no matter how "marked" is not racism, at least in any sense in which the word makes since within the context of old Southern pro-slavery arguments, white supremacist doctrine, black power ideology, or critical race theory.

Wait a sec. I see what you're doing! It's kind of like when little kids play Army or something, and pretend that random people in the neighborhood are involved in their imaginary conflicts. Similarly, in your imaginary conflict, you are pretending that I (or anyone else in this thread) give a crap about old Southern pro-slavery arguments, white supremacist doctrine, black power ideology, or critical race theory.

Also, you appear to be having a hard time understanding cause and effect regarding the Lamanite curse. The Lamanites were not inferior because they had a dark skin. They were given a dark skin because they were inferior. When they became righteous, their skin became white.

1. They were not inferior as human beings. They were wicked as a people. Again, you engage in what I suspect to be knowing equivocation in your use to terms in an attempt to grease the skids that the lack of logical consistency and rigor in your argument cannot otherwise do. It won't work Darth. Resistance is futile.

Or maybe you are imposing your imaginary conflicts on the outside world, and think that I am talking about "race" in any sense other than that which is found in the dictionaryr.

Sometimes the Lamanites became lighter skinned, through obvious genetic intermingling with the Nephites. At other times, they clearly did not (the righteous Lamanites and their prophet Samuel, in the Book of Helaman).

Tell me about the obvious genetic mechanism that would cause people who were born with dark skin to turn white like another population within one year, as recorded in 3 Nephi 2.

In the official LDS version of the Book of Mormon, the headnote to this chapter says, "Converted Lamanites become white and are called Nephites." But probably the One True Church That Is Lead By Inspired Prophets And Apostles does not understand what the Book of Mormon means, like you do.

The "curse," it must be remembered, is not marker itself, but that which it signifies, which is a culture and traditions hostile to the gospel. Otherwise, Jacob never would have said:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers. (Jacob 3:9)

For actual racists, skin color itself connotes innate, essential inferiority. The ancient Egyptians were dark skinned, and they were to some extent related to other black Africans in a genetic sense, and they had a high, technologically and intellectually advanced culture. A racist would would be dumbfounded by this, but the Book of Abraham never states that the Egyptian people were innately inferior, or that there culture was a waste of time. Indeed, the Egyptians had wisdom, but not priesthood; they didn't have the gospel among them, and had they, they would have needed priesthood holders from outside their ethnic/genetic group to officiate in any ordinances.

That's funny, because this is pretty much the same kind of thing you see from internet defenders of the Nation of Islam explaining why they call white people "devils."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion ... white.html

It's acutally quite obvious that the God of the universe left his (stamp) imprint most significantly on people of African descent. Everything about God's universe is built on the foundation of spirals or coils, the the galaxies, the planets around the sun, DNA, electons in their orbits, fractals, etc. People of African descent carry this trait of our original creation genetically as it manifests as coils in our coily hair. It a natural manifestation of our original creation.

It is well established in the Bible and Quran that Satan was envious of (ADAM) black people, thus in Satan's controlled world of the earth, he has set out to keep people that carry of the image of God (black people) in bondage. that's why we have been kept in bondage and the African continent and it's people raped and pillaged by Europeans.

After exile from the garden of Eden, and Satan gained control of earth, and set out to carry out his plan for mankind. He utilized a lineage far removed from God's original people, Europeans, to carry out his will and intent. Europeans genetically represent 20,000 years of genetic drift from God's original plan for mankind. There hair have no coils, they actually represent a genetic mutation, hence a virus or cancer. They are like the Machurian Candidate for the enemy of this world. Symbolically they collectively represent a cancer to this world. They represent a mutation that has grown out of control and is effectively destroying it's host, the planet.

They have also very successful excuted the will of the enemy in also destroying the planet in the sake of greed. "Money is the root of evil". Not only have they disrupted planetary harmony, but harmony throughout the universe. Changes are in the works. As we near the return of God, we will see a tranference of power back to his original people, as Europeans have successful carried out the whims of the ruler of this world.

How about that? It's pretty much "Mad Libs: Defend Your Crackpot Religious Dogma."

"My religious leader said the things he did about skin color because God is color I am and made the parents of the human race look like him, and the people who have a different skin color than me have a different skin color because of sin. This principle is based on ludicrous assertion about the nature of the universe. My religion's holy book says.........."

The Lamanties of the time, due to their rebellion against God and hostility to the culture of Zion, could have had priesthood, but didn't have either wisdom or the gospel. Its all about culture and what lies in the heart. Its only about race to you and others like you who lie in wait to deceive and offend for each and every spoken or written word.

Thus, the Indians are not white because their Hebrew ancestors rejected Christianity.

- Snip sophistical courtroomesque red herrings and diversionary drivel that has already been answered time and again-

I always enjoy your fascinating insights into the law, Droopy. Tell me again how in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, the Supreme Court held that the Commerce Clause "is now a blank check for Congress and other government agencies to do pretty much anything they so desire[.]" viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24572&start=42