Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

[_Kevin Graham]

Ray why do you keep resurrecting this thing as if you're presenting new evidence to exonerate Schryver?

You weren't there. Few people were involved in that exchange or saw it happen before it was censored. But I was among them.

I remember Schryver saying something really horrible, but honestly I couldn't say exactly what it was when asked. It pissed me off enough to make me threaten him with physical violence if he and I ever met face to face. When I saw the hoopla immediately afterwards regarding his use of the "C" word, I remember having no thoughts of "but that isn't what he said." In fact, that sounded about right and I remember being happy that the mods edited the post.

I don't understand why anyone would want to give William the benefit of the doubt based on what someone else said they didn't remember seeing (as if that counts as evidence to the contrary) and what another person believes to be true just because he doesn't like harmony (for some personal issues).

The fact is William is a proven liar, period. The fact is his rhetoric and vulgarity had reached unprecedented levels, and he was proud of that fact. The fact is he continues to lie about the things he has said, even to this day. We know this. It is beyond dispute. So believe what you want. Those of us who were there, know the facts whether or not everyone chooses to believe them.

[_RayAgostini]

You weren't there. Few people were involved in that exchange or saw it happen before it was censored. But I was among them.

I remember Schryver saying something really horrible, but honestly I couldn't say exactly what it was when asked. It pissed me off enough to make me threaten him with physical violence if he and I ever met face to face. When I saw the hoopla immediately afterwards regarding his use of the "C" word, I remember having no thoughts of "but that isn't what he said." In fact, that sounded about right and I remember being happy that the mods edited the post.

Not very convincing, Kevin, but nevertheless an honest account. You didn't see it, either. I was actually there, lurking, and I didn't see it either. But because I didn't post on the thread, my observations are not worth much. Those who did, didn't see it either.

This should have been made more explicit in the OP. We have exactly one witness - harmony. Stak may qualify as another witness, and maybe he should speak up more. Spurven is a proven liar, and I wouldn't take his word on anything.

Harmony's dislike of Will, and her dislike and distrust of Mormon leaders, doesn't exactly instil the most confidence in her word. Her friends may well believe her - but her incessant dislike, disdain and contempt for Mormonism and it's leaders - is not something that endears me to accept her view as "gospel truth".

When you stink and crap on Mormonism, as harmony has, don't expect to be believed in an instant.

[_Kevin Graham]

Not very convincing, Kevin, but nevertheless an honest account.

So far you and Eric aren't convinced. So what? What else is new? Like we're supposed to keep beating this into the ground until you are both convinced?

You didn't see it, either

Uh, yes I did. That was the reason I responded to him the way I did.

I was actually there, lurking, and I didn't see it either. But because I didn't post on the thread, my observations are not worth much. Those who did, didn't see it either.

We have at least two or three people who say they saw it. Then you have me, who saw the original comment and got extremely pissed about it. I honestly don't remember whether he called her a bitch, a cunt or a whore. But I do know it was something along those lines. That there is four direct witnesses to what was said, which weighs heavily against yours and Eric's testimony of seeing ... "nothing."

This should have been made more explicit in the OP. We have exactly one witness - harmony. Stak may qualify as another witness, and maybe he should speak up more. Spurven is a proven liar, and I wouldn't take his word on anything.

Ah, but by that logic you shouldn't take William's word either. And yet the only reason you challenge us on this is because you think William, the proven liar on issues regarding his posting history, is suddenly telling the truth. And just how long did it take before William decided to deny having made that remark?

Harmony's dislike of Will, and her dislike and distrust of Mormon leaders, doesn't exactly instil the most confidence in her word.

Ah, so the penny drops. You prefer to think Harmony is just making this up because she is biased, even though there is zero evidence that she is. Nor do you have any evidence that she is conspiring with Stak and Spurven, which is precisely what had to have happened if William -the proven liar on multiple occasions - is telling the truth.

Her friends may well believe her - but her incessant dislike, disdain and contempt for Mormonism and it's leaders - is not something that endears me to accept her view as "gospel truth".

Last time I checked, William isn't in any sense "Mormonism and it's leaders," and harmony is still LDS if I recall correctly. Your argument is dumb and it is precisely the kind of thing the apologists love to use when dismissing critical arguments based on a presumption of excessive bias. Evidence only matters when Mormon faithful witness something, but all critics of Mormonism must be too biased to tell the truth. Right?

When you stink and s*** on Mormonism, as harmony has, don't expect to be believed in an instant.

You keep misrepresenting the evidence by confining it strictly to harmony's say-so. In reality you have three direct witnesses and my recollection which you already concede to be honest. If I were lying about it then I'd just lie all the way and say I saw the "c" word as well. We already know for a fact that William lied about what he said. I forget what he claimed to have said, but he said it was something ridiculously innocuous. So harmless that harmony never would have edited it out. Nor would I have ever been upset by it. Your theory presupposes that harmony thought she could edit someone's original post, lie about what was said for no apparent reason (as if William needed anyone to put words in his mouth in order to embarrass the LDS Church!), and then just hope no one saw it. That seems like an awful risk for her to take for no apparent reason. You and Rollo say you saw the original post but neither of you can confirm William's claim of what was originally said. Stak, Harmony and Spurven saw it. You throw Harmony and Spurven under the bus just because you think they quickly conspired to lie about William that same morning, but then you have to assume Stak is lying too. Has Stak ever been known to lie about anything?

And you can believe whatever you want, but you keep reliving this issue by presenting only the evidence that you think can be used to exonerate William, proving that this issue is far more important to you than it ever was for harmony. That says plenty about who has a bias right there.

[_RayAgostini]

We have at least two or three people who say they saw it. Then you have me, who saw the original comment and got extremely pissed about it. I honestly don't remember whether he called her a bitch, a c*** or a whore. But I do know it was something along those lines.

(Emphasis added)


Keep going, Kevin. Truth might actually spring out of you one day, and here you demonstrate that it's entirely possible.

Just remember that your credibility on the KEP and the Book of Abraham also rests on this.

[_Chap]

Just to get us back on track - here is the OP. There are many, many gems of Schryver' polished, gentlemanly and urbane style of dialogue with women to be found by following these links.

But first - this is one of my favorites, addressed to harmony:

(3/23/09):

Harmony is just bitter that the daily circle jerks in the Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ are the closest she has come to a bona fide sexual experience in over 40 years.

I simply cannot understand how her husband has resisted the urge to off himself for so long. Of all the men in human history who have felt compelled, no matter the cost, to “stick it out” with a bitch of a wife – Joseph Smith included – if anyone deserves the reward of 72 virgins in heaven, it’s that poor man.

UPDATE (5/19/2011): PLEASE READ

I have received a very brief note informing me that my case as laid out in this thread has been heard and William Schryver's work will not be published by the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship. I am sharing this information with permission, and while I will not reveal my source, please know that I have 100% trust in the information s/he has passed onto me. Please also know that this was not an official correspondence from the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, but an informal one from someone "in the know" who wanted to let me know that my case has been heard.

In light of this development, I see no reason to reproduce the series on any of my blogs. I consider the matter as closed as it ever will be.

Do not send me private messages or e-mails asking for more information about what was said or who said it. I will not tell you.

Thank you everyone who has read my thread and heard me out. I am relieved to know that there are others who share my desire to keep Mormon Studies a friendly place for female academics to participate.

Sincerely,
-Bridget Jack Jeffries a.k.a. "MsJack"

----------------------

Table of Contents

Introduction
Some Notes on My Source Material
A Note to the MDB Moderators
Obsessed With Breasts & a Little Black Dress
"You're Only as Young as the Women You Feel"
"Over Your Pretty Little Head"
Other Incidents
Emma Smith: "Champion Bitch" of the Restoration
Has William Ever Addressed This Behavior?
Have Other LDS Scholars & Apologists Addressed This Behavior?
Conclusion: Why It Matters

You could subtract 50% of the incidents of abuse logged in those references, and you would still end up with a cowardly, potty-mouthed woman-despising bully. Oh, and terminologically inexact too, as the latest evidence shows.

I wonder why Schryver, who is said to be such a nice, good, friendly man in real life allows his dark side to do all the posting on boards where he runs into those appalling monsters -'apostate' women?

by the way isn't the internet marvelous? It allows Schryver's sole remaining supporter to lose sleep on his behalf from the other side of the world. Poor old Ray!

[_RayAgostini]

by the way isn't the internet marvelous? It allows Schryver's sole remaining supporter to lose sleep on his behalf from the other side of the world. Poor old Ray!

Thanks for reminding me of that classic Schryver quote - I was in stitches then, as I am now.

[_Kevin Graham]

So you find his remarks funny, Ray?

Well, that pretty much tells us what kind of man you are. You have no business talking about bias or credibility. You're practically cheering him on while complaining about bias from those who are offended? Go back to the Church Ray, you'd make a wonderful Mormon.

And the Book of Abraham and KEP have nothing to do with credibility on any side. The evidence speaks for itself. Joseph Smith lied. The apologists lied. LDS scholars have lied. Period. That's a logical conclusion based on all teh available evidence; it isn't a matter of just taking someone's word for it - though the apologists would just love it to be as simple as that.

[_RayAgostini]

Joseph Smith lied.

Joseph did not lie. He told the truth.

The mysteries of God and his workings will be kept from people like you.

Have a very good day, Kevin.

[_RayAgostini]

From my forthcoming book, The Best Quotes of William Schryver:

And if I ever meet Mr. Scratch on the street, I'll knock him on his ass, pin him to the ground, and stick blades of grass up his nose until he cries.

God love ya, Will.

Goodnight, all.

[_Chap]

by the way isn't the internet marvelous? It allows Schryver's sole remaining supporter to lose sleep on his behalf from the other side of the world. Poor old Ray!

Thanks for reminding me of that classic Schryver quote - I was in stitches then, as I am now.

So this is what you find funny, Ray:

Harmony is just bitter that the daily circle jerks in the Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ are the closest she has come to a bona fide sexual experience in over 40 years.

I simply cannot understand how her husband has resisted the urge to off himself for so long. Of all the men in human history who have felt compelled, no matter the cost, to “stick it out” with a bitch of a wife – Joseph Smith included – if anyone deserves the reward of 72 virgins in heaven, it’s that poor man.

You know, my relations with women have been one of the nicest things in my life - correction, the nicest thing, although the rest has not been bad either. It's funny how, when they figure out that you actually like them as folks and respect them, women are much more fun to be with ... in many, many ways.

But somehow, from your taste in humor, I think you may have missed out on that aspect of life. It must be hard for you.