The Consiglieris Must Be Crazy!

[_consiglieri]

. . .you are nothing more than a human who is excellent at deception.

Who could ask for anything more?

[_lulu]

Let us know how it goes.

lulu - too afraid of why me to say more

[_thews]

. . .you are nothing more than a human who is excellent at deception.

Who could ask for anything more?

How very brave of you... you're proud of being a false witness. I think we all feel humans are generally good at the core of their soul. The next time you spin your crafted hogwash and leave out key elements to make a case for Mormonism you know is false, I hope a little bell goes off in your head signaling you're intentionally being deceptive by what you don't say. If there's one thing any Christian can glean from the Bible, it's what God thinks of liars. Sleep well teacher to itching ears... your false witness has bills to pay.

[_TrashcanMan79]

Hey Consig, any bites?

[_Drifting]

The next time you spin your crafted hogwash and leave out key elements to make a case for Mormonism you know is false, I hope a little bell goes off in your head signaling you're intentionally being deceptive by what you don't say. If there's one thing any Christian can glean from the Bible, it's what God thinks of liars. Sleep well teacher to itching ears... your false witness has bills to pay.

I take it you have forwarded this advice to; the Correlation Committee; General Conference speakers; the committee responsible for producing Church teaching materials; FARMS; and the Maxwell Institute...?

[_consiglieri]

Hey Consig, any bites?

Nary a one so far. Maybe Thews has more clout than I thought.

I do have some friends from other churches beating the bushes and approaching their pastors about the issue.

Translation for Thews--"I am using some friends to get me an opportunity to lie to their congregations about the Mormon Church and try by deception to obtain converts for my cult."

[_thews]

Translation for Thews--"I am using some friends to get me an opportunity to lie to their congregations about the Mormon Church and try by deception to obtain converts for my cult."

Translation for Consiglieri -- You aren't going to try and convert anyone. Your objective is to distort the truth in order to deceive them into thinking Mormonism is what's it's not. Just tell them about the magic rocks, the 14 year-old wives, the priesthood ban, Kolob, secret handshakes for the gatekeeper and all the multiple God scenarios and they'll be sure to be intrigued enough they'll consider converting .

[_consiglieri]

Well, I just received my first response to my invitation to discuss Mormonism at local churches. Here it is, together with my response.

(I note Stak was dead on with his comment about the word "fellowship," which seems to have gotten this gentleman's knickers in a twist.)

Dear Mr. Consiglieri,

My church, Christ The King, recently received your letter offering to address our congregation. My pastor gave me your letter because he is aware that such things interest me, especially as they relate to Christian apologetics. While my initial response is the desire to hear you out, upon further reflection we’ve come to the conclusion that it would be unwise. I enjoy the conversations I have with people of different faiths, or no faith at all, because I think such interaction and thinking critically is one way to help us reach the truth. However, there are some things about your proposition that I find unsettling.

You say you offer “fellowship”, which traditionally suggests a similarity in faith. It is not the position of our church that the beliefs of the LDS faith comport with those of historical Christianity, and so fellowship, at least in this sense of the word, would not be possible. It seems that perhaps what you are offering is assistance with the equivocation of the term “Christianity” as seems to be common in the media and among LDS membership in the recent past. This, however, seems to be the opposite of what Joseph Smith wanted. You say your intention is not to persuade anyone that Mormonism is superior, or to convert, but if that is not your intention, then what is it? Given an audience with anybody on the subject of theology, I would assert that your faith is weak if your intention isn’t to win hearts and minds. I mean no disrespect by this, but our faith in the doctrines of historical Christianity tell us that your faith is most definitely inferior to ours. I worship no man, ascended to be a god or otherwise. I worship the One, triune, eternally existent, all-powerful, all-knowing, personal, uncaused, cause of all Creation. Not the Eventually Came to Be, but the Great I Am who always has been and always will be. These are just the plain facts about what we believe. Since it is our position that the LDS religion is based on deception, treasure/power seeking, divination, twisted and modified(JST) scripture, false prophets, bad science, bad history, and bad philosophy, my intention with any conversation I have about religion with any Mormon is to save them from that. You should be saying the same thing to us, and not that you have no intention of making a case for the superiority of Mormonism!

In the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19, Joseph Smith records, “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt…” If you really believe what your founding prophet professes, that our creeds are an abomination and we’re all corrupt, you most certainly think Mormonism is superior to our faith, and as such you should be compelled to persuade us of that fact, for our belief is of the very creedal form to which Joseph Smith was referring. I take no offense to that. Plenty of people don’t believe in the historical doctrines of Christianity. Everybody must think critically and come to their own conclusions using the evidence at hand. As an attorney I’m sure you’re no stranger to this fact. It doesn’t mean we can’t be friends. I only ask that you be intellectually honest. If your purpose is not to convert our congregants, then I wonder what it must be. There are only a couple other potential purposes I can imagine. One would be to become religious allies, which we’ve already established was not Joseph Smith’s intent, and so it should not be yours if you are to be true to your prophet. The other would be to offer political kinship, which would not be particularly appropriate for a church setting anyway.

In Matthew 7:15 Jesus warns us to watch out for false prophets that come to us in sheep’s clothing. It is our position that Mormonism is based on the teaching of one such false prophet, and therefore it would be unwise for us to sponsor your addressing of our sheep. However, I would encourage you to put on a neutral community event open to people of all faiths, or no faith. I think a community forum would be the appropriate venue, and I, for one, would be interested in such an event as I have some questions that young Mormon missionaries seem unable to answer. Please let us know if you organize anything like this!

Please don’t be put off by my bluntness with regards to the reasons for turning down your offer. I may believe your conclusions with regards to ultimate realities to be incorrect, but your boldness is admirable!

Sincerely,

Michael Wright
Christ the King Community Church

My response:

Dear Mike,

Thank you for the courtesy of your response.

I can understand your reluctance to accept my offer at face value to simply discuss the subject of Mormonism and answer any questions. But regardless of whether you think I should be trying to convince you of the superiority of Mormonism, or how this proposal may reflect on the strength of my faith, such is the not the case.

My intent is not to assist in the “equivocation” of the term, “Christianity.” This is simply a matter of definition. According to one person’s definition of “Christianity,” Mormons are Christian. According to another person’s definition of “Christianity,” Mormons are not. I am happy to allow others to define Christianity as they see fit. By my definition of “Christianity,” you are a Christian. By your definition of “Christianity,” I am not. I can live with that.

You may be surprised to know I agree with you that the LDS Church has gone too far in trying to appear similar to traditional Christianity of late.

I do not seek to become religious allies, though I think frank and forthright discussion helps with understanding if not with alliance. It is understanding I am after, not conversion. And I am heartened by your statement that our differences in belief does not mean we cannot be friends.

Nor do I seek political kinship, which I agree with you would not be suitable for a church setting.

On the subject of creeds, it is my belief that Joseph Smith abhorred creeds not because of any specific wording in any particular creed, but that it was the idea of having a creed to which he was opposed. Joseph saw religious belief as something that should be open-ended and able to be added upon continually by additional revelation. He saw creeds as closing the door on learning more about God and the things of God, and for this reason was opposed to them.

If you would like to send me one of the questions the local missionaries cannot answer, I would be happy to give it a crack.

Thank you again for taking the time to consider my proposition and for your kind response.

Sincerely,

Consiglieri

[_Drifting]

On the subject of creeds, it is my belief that Joseph Smith abhorred creeds not because of any specific wording in any particular creed, but that it was the idea of having a creed to which he was opposed. Joseph saw religious belief as something that should be open-ended and able to be added upon continually by additional revelation. He saw creeds as closing the door on learning more about God and the things of God, and for this reason was opposed to them.

consig, do you not think you have missed his point on this?

His reply to you was stating the fact that Mormon's believe God himself had the view that all other creeds were an abomination, not Joseph himself.

[_consiglieri]

consig, do you not think you have missed his point on this?

His reply to you was stating the fact that Mormon's believe God himself had the view that all other creeds were an abomination, not Joseph himself.

I miss the point on a lot of things, Drifting!

But in this case, I think it less confrontational to speak in terms of Joseph Smith's beliefs rather than God's thundering pronouncements.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri