How did it go so horribly wrong?

[_Bob Loblaw]

I used to believe that as Mormons we were part of something really important and far grander than us. I revered the prophets and diligently studied my scriptures and went to the temple and prayed and had family home evenings and went to my meetings. I worked hard in my callings as an instructor, quorum president, group leader, and other callings.

Then I started looking beneath the surface and everything I checked out turned out to be hollow and empty. The scriptures I trusted were just poorly cobbled-together stuff by a guy who said he could see things in rocks. The great prophet of the restoration was a manipulative lecher, his successors ranged from a megalomaniacal, murderous dictator to a dogmatic bumpkin, a dimwitted insurance agent, and a demented right-winger. The organization was more about making money and gaining converts than changing lives for the better. The welfare program wasn't designed to help people but to cajole them into church activity. And worst of all I was miserable and depressed and unhappy.

I once thought that it was just my attitude that changed, but as I look at the church and its history, it's always been like this. I just didn't see it. People talk about reforming the church, but there's not a hell of a lot that is worth reforming.

[_harmony]

I once thought that it was just my attitude that changed, but as I look at the church and its history, it's always been like this. I just didn't see it. People talk about reforming the church, but there's not a hell of a lot that is worth reforming.

They could start by opening the books, then we could go from there.

[_Philo Sofee]

I think part of the issue is the church does not tell us everything. The secrecy theme is a man made aspect of religion. God, assuming He/She/It exists at all has no need of secrecy. He/She/It is already omniscient, omnipresent, omni everything so there is no reason for secrecy, but for man there is, because it gives an aura of mystery, of power. God has no need for power displays he already supposedly has it all, but MEN don't have it, so they create it. Any religion carefully crafts what it tells about the Bible, their own history, etc. If a religion can't control it loses its power, the exact opposite of science. Science ideally is open and willing to ASK and LEARN and QUESTION. Religion wants no questions, they want obedience. Every lesson taught even has coaching questions at the end to ask the audience. It is all carefully led into only certain paths. Once one seriously begins studying the scriptures on one's own we very soon learn and see that what the church teaches is nothing near the whole story. They repeat the same information over every year and keep us thinking we are learning by coaching us into asking the questions the church wants us to think about, and thus we are kept in check.
If God actually did want or need (like what?) our salvation and to have us understand, He/She/It could easily appear to every single human on earth (after all isn't he "dad" to us all?) and instruct us, then there would be no apostasies, contradictions or questions about what we are to think about abortion, whether to be Republican or Democrat, illegal aliens in our country, taxes, etc. That He/She/It doesn't do this only shows, quite honestly that either He is not interested in us near to the extent the church wants us to believe He is, or else He is incapable. God doesn't NEED us to have faith in Him, He doesn't NEED anything....... it's man's way of beguiling the public into believing that only the few special chosen are worthy for the great light and it is to THEM we are to turn. Pretty silly stuff actually when it's carried to its logical conclusions.

[_Philo Sofee]

I once thought that it was just my attitude that changed, but as I look at the church and its history, it's always been like this. I just didn't see it. People talk about reforming the church, but there's not a hell of a lot that is worth reforming.

They could start by opening the books, then we could go from there.

And hopefully not the doctored books or "cleansed" history books that have taken out all the parts that Packer thinks are, how did he say it, "not very helpful or truthful"? The entire church love affair with censorship is stupid. It HAS to occur though, because if you cannot control the information, you cannot control the people. Every single religion is this way, Mormonism is just another one in the long line who faithfully adheres to religions way of teaching the truth, censored, cleaned up, and faith promoting. If they didn't do that, of what appeal would any religion have.....honestly.....

[_Nightlion]

Listen up crybabies. Nothing wrong with the Restoration. If it realized its purpose and was cranking out saint after Enoch level saint everybody would still shut their mouths. The Legacy of the Restoration is what is all screwed up. Hypocrisy run amok and you can chuck all the Joseph hate because that is blaming him for Gentile faithlessness.

Just like Christians PRETEND to be what they are not the Anti-Mormons PRETEND Joseph was as they like it. Bull crap! So we got thousands and thousands who all agree Joseph was a skunk. Like they have to take it on faith because there is NO smoking gun. Still they persist in their faith.

The Book of Mormon and D&C are cobbled together "what"? lol. You need a spiritual enema. The Mormons today do not KNOW what the gospel is and they are hoping to skate by into exaltation. NO they will not! They are damned for all eternity and no amount of preaching will lift the weight. They are a lost and hammered down tight pile of pride.

So it is a problem that needs sorting out. But there is nothing wrong with anything God gave Joseph Smith. It will triumph at last but not by way of the LDS Church. Worlds without end. That will never happen.

[_Philo Sofee]

Listen up crybabies. Nothing wrong with the Restoration. If it realized its purpose and was cranking out saint after Enoch level saint everybody would still shut their mouths. The Legacy of the Restoration is what is all screwed up. Hypocrisy run amok and you can chuck all the Joseph hate because that is blaming him for Gentile faithlessness.

Just like Christians PRETEND to be what they are not the Anti-Mormons PRETEND Joseph was as they like it. Bull crap! So we got thousands and thousands who all agree Joseph was a skunk. Like they have to take it on faith because there is NO smoking gun. Still they persist in their faith.

The Book of Mormon and D&C are cobbled together "what"? lol. You need a spiritual enema. The Mormons today do not KNOW what the gospel is and they are hoping to skate by into exaltation. NO they will not! They are damned for all eternity and no amount of preaching will lift the weight. They are a lost and hammered down tight pile of pride.

So it is a problem that needs sorting out. But there is nothing wrong with anything God gave Joseph Smith. It will triumph at last but not by way of the LDS Church. Worlds without end. That will never happen.

Well if we Mormons don't know the restoration or the Gospel, wouldn't you think if God actually worried about that and needed to do something about it He could and would? I mean talking to one or two doesn't get the message out nearly effectively as say.......(wait for it.......) telling each of us individually? Obviously our thinking that we know what God's concerns are are not lining up with the reality that God obviously isn't all that interested in getting the word out. Now take a Presidential candidate for instance......does he just tell a couple of specially chosen disciples his ideas and ask THEM to start spreading the word? No, he goes to the national television circuits, radio and internet.....he does what it takes to get the information out to ALL. Would it be impossible to suppose..... just suppose that an almighty creator could do it even better than that so there is no doubt about what He wants? I'm just speculating..... I mean God almighty after all, is anything too hard for Him? Apparently easy communication among all men is a virtual impossibility. Otherwise why are there so many fricking religions all who disagree and all who claim they have the right truth to teach? God is not the author of confusion, but the Bible has caused more confusion than any other single book in all of history. It is nothing but a morass of confusion itself. Obviously, since communication is a TWO WAY STREET, God is doing a lousy job at letting us know what is going on and what He wants. Hello? The world is a morass of myopic miasma of mummery and superstition and Mormonism has done next to nothing to helping Old Testament with it with all the revelations that are supposed to be helping. Am I honestly the only one who sees the obvious here?

[_bcspace]

They could start by opening the books, then we could go from there.

The books are open. There's nothing catastrophic to any truth claim. With regards to the other books, no apostles or prophets are jet setting around the world and none of them spend lots of time relaxing on some island paradise. This is, as Brian Laundrie alludes, just an attitude problem among you. A seriously intellectually dishonest one.

[_Philo Sofee]

They could start by opening the books, then we could go from there.

The books are open. There's nothing catastrophic to any truth claim. With regards to the other books, no apostles or prophets are jet setting around the world and none of them spend lots of time relaxing on some island paradise. This is, as Brian Laundrie alludes, just an attitude problem among you. A seriously intellectually dishonest one.

What is intellectually dishonest is the careful selection year in and year out of only a specific group of scriptures within the scriptures to continually write and comment and teach on and present THAT as God's truth he wants us to know for these last days, all the while ignoring the obvious glaring problems with all else. What is intellectually dishonest is claiming that one is above criticism and immune from questioning even when it is correct criticism. What is intellectually dishonest is to proclaim that the truth only coming from a carefully correlated committee is the Lord's will. You don't have a moral leg to stand on tossing around intellectually dishonest tripe as you are doing.

[_bcspace]

What is intellectually dishonest is the careful selection year in and year out of only a specific group of scriptures within the scriptures to continually write and comment and teach on and present THAT as God's truth he wants us to know for these last days, all the while ignoring the obvious glaring problems with all else.

There are no verses which hurt the LDS Church. If there were, you would have given an example.

all the while ignoring the obvious glaring problems with all else.

Again, no examples.

[_harmony]

They could start by opening the books, then we could go from there.

The books are open. There's nothing catastrophic to any truth claim. With regards to the other books, no apostles or prophets are jet setting around the world and none of them spend lots of time relaxing on some island paradise. This is, as Brian Laundrie alludes, just an attitude problem among you. A seriously intellectually dishonest one.

Then they have nothing to fear, from opening the books, publishing a yearly annual report of income and expenses, line item by line item.