Facsimile 3

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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Shulem wrote:Again, we are taken into the world of representationalism whereby the Lord has used an Egyptian stage prop to illustrate the story of Abraham. Here we also see that this supposed pagan scene is used by the Lord to further his own purposes. The Lord works in mysterious ways!

Paul O

In that case, why do you not believe in it anymore?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_Philo Sofee
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Philo Sofee »

zeezrom wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:I don't think plausible means the same as probable. Probable measures frequency. Plausible just means something this side of absurd.

I thought it meant seemingly reasonable or probable. Probability can be quantitative but it doesn't have to be.


Seemingly reasonable would equate better with plausible wouldn't it? It is subjective without question though. Seemingly reasonable to WHO? would be a very important question to ask. To people who have brain disorders, seeing God and Satan fighting together against Zeus in the clouds with Hercules joining would be seemingly reasonable. Others would think it was plain kooky. Seemingly reasonable is a far cry from plausible using reason and logic. Perhaps I am missing something?
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Actually, to the contrary, it makes him a revelator (goes with being a prophet - just FYI).

Which is why I said false prophet. Call him a false revelator if you want, but the fact is the evidence proves he lied. He couldn't produce valid translations via revelation.
The whole premise that Joseph Smith translated pagan Egyptian papyri is ludicrous.

And yet that is precisely what he claimed he did.
As I've pointed out on multiple occasions, the papyri was merely the impetus for this revelation to take place.

Yes, because it contained the Egyptian text he purported to translate.
There is no reason to suspect Egyptian papyri would contain anything about Abraham

Agreed, but that is precisely what Joseph Smith claimed. In fact he claimed this particular document was written by Abraham himself.
They would purely be Egyptian in origin and contain Egyptian myths. The facts bear that out.

Which is why Joseph Smith is a false prophet.
The mistake apologists (and critics) make is they rely on Joseph Smith's knowledge about the papyri and subsequent statements. There is no reason to do so since he obviously did not have the expertise (or knowledge) to ascertain what the papyri were.

I've already addressed this straw man but it seems you don't know how to let go of it. No one has ever said Joseph Smith's "knowledge" was the means by which he purported to translate the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri. I asked you to produce a single example from critics (or apologists) who ever said this. Instead of backing up your claim you ignore my response and just repeat the same nonense, as if this, in some weird way, gives Joseph Smith a free pass on his failed translations.
There is nothing desparate about it. It is simply a logical assertion

What is? You're not speaking with any degree of coherence now.
IF the Book of Abraham is inspired and a true representation of Abraham's writings, then the Egyptian papyri could not possibly be the source.

More importantly, since the Egyptian papri could not possibly be used to produce a Book of Abraham, then Joseph Smith could not have been a true Prophet.
What Joseph Smith must have seen were the long lost original writings of Abraham and revealed them to us.

But there is no reason, aside from apologetic desperation, to propose "long long original writings." We already know that the source for the Book of Abraham is the scroll of Hor. All the evidence points to this as the source. Wherever we turn, whether historical statements or textual evidence in the KEP, the primary focus was on this document. A portion of that scroll was even canonized as the "commencement" of the record of Abraham. Now you can believe whatever convoluted theory you need to believe in order to maintain faith, but the fact is Joseph Smith never said any of these things you're coming up with. He never said he wasn't really translating, or that he was providing only "speculative annotations," etc. That's apologetic rhetoric you're trying to inject into the narrative as if we're just supposed to take it for granted. Joseph Smith made it perfectly clear the Book of Abraham was translated from Egyptian papyri. And you alread admitted to us that it is absurd to think it could have come from Egyptian papyri.
This should be perfectly acceptable to any LDS since they already believe Joseph Smith revealed the Book of Mormon in much the same way.

On the contrary, the Church teaches that the Book of Mormon narrative was literally on the plates Smith claimed to have translates, just as the Book of Abraham narrative was literally written on the Egyptian papyri in his possession.
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Shulem »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Shulem wrote:Again, we are taken into the world of representationalism whereby the Lord has used an Egyptian stage prop to illustrate the story of Abraham. Here we also see that this supposed pagan scene is used by the Lord to further his own purposes. The Lord works in mysterious ways!

Paul O

In that case, why do you not believe in it anymore?


Because all of the combined evidences show that Joseph Smith really was translating words and symbols into a conventional interpretation -- he claimed to translate Egyptian into English but he was lying. There are many eyewitness accounts that attest that Joseph Smith claimed to translate so that even the dead Egyptians would esteem Joseph Smith as a prophet who understood their language and symbolism. But Joseph Smith was nothing more than a common thief. He stole from everyone and anything. He stole from the Masons. He stole from the Egyptians. He even stole wives from other men. He was a Goddamn lying son of a bitch. And I hate the bastard. And his successors are Goddamn liars too and that includes Monson, the pretended prophet of our day.

Paul O
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Shulem »

Kevin Graham wrote: In fact he claimed this particular document was written by Abraham himself.


Yes, the evidence does prove that Joseph Smith claimed the papyrus was written by father Abraham and was the Book of Abraham written in Egyptian on papyrus.

Quincy Whig, Vol. 3, p. 1, October 1840

"He (Joseph Smith) then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

'These ancient records,' said he, throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There,' said he, pointing to a particular character, 'that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.' 'It is indeed a most interesting autograph,' I replied, 'and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.'

'Yes', replied the Prophet, 'and the translation hung up with them'."


Paul O
_zeezrom
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _zeezrom »

Okay okay. "It's plausible that I was only falling more in love with you while having sex with another woman. In a symbolic way, I was reaching out to you." yeah, I guess it is plausible.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_zeezrom
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _zeezrom »

The Book of Abraham is the child of religious adultery.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Shulem »

TEST

1. [ ]TRUE [ ]FALSE

Joseph Smith believed his Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were inspired from the same source which gave him the story of the Book of Abraham.

2. [ ]TRUE [ ]FALSE

An Egyptian king's name is contained in the characters above the hand in Facsimile No. 3 as revealed by Joseph Smith.

Paul O
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Shulem »

1. Joseph Smith claimed his so-called inspiration through the Holy Ghost
2. Joseph Smith claimed the papyri were 4,000 years old
3. Joseph Smith claimed he had genuine Abrahamic papyrus
4. Joseph Smith pointed at the name of "Abraham" on Hor’s papyrus
5. Joseph Smith stole material from other sources to create his Book of Abraham

Paul O
_Tobin
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Re: Facsimile 3

Post by _Tobin »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:Actually, to the contrary, it makes him a revelator (goes with being a prophet - just FYI).

Which is why I said false prophet. Call him a false revelator if you want, but the fact is the evidence proves he lied. He couldn't produce valid translations via revelation.
The evidence proves no such thing. The evidence shows he was ignorant of what the papyri was, that he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and needed to rely on the Lord for any revelation.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:The whole premise that Joseph Smith translated pagan Egyptian papyri is ludicrous.

And yet that is precisely what he claimed he did.
And as I said, he was mistaken.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:As I've pointed out on multiple occasions, the papyri was merely the impetus for this revelation to take place.
Yes, because it contained the Egyptian text he purported to translate.
Joseph Smith was incapable of translating the papyri. If he could tell us anything, it had to be by the gift and power of God.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:There is no reason to suspect Egyptian papyri would contain anything about Abraham
Agreed, but that is precisely what Joseph Smith claimed. In fact he claimed this particular document was written by Abraham himself.
Again, he was mistaken.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:They would purely be Egyptian in origin and contain Egyptian myths. The facts bear that out.

Which is why Joseph Smith is a false prophet.
No, it shows he was a fallible human being.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:The mistake apologists (and critics) make is they rely on Joseph Smith's knowledge about the papyri and subsequent statements. There is no reason to do so since he obviously did not have the expertise (or knowledge) to ascertain what the papyri were.

I've already addressed this straw man but it seems you don't know how to let go of it. No one has ever said Joseph Smith's "knowledge" was the means by which he purported to translate the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri. I asked you to produce a single example from critics (or apologists) who ever said this. Instead of backing up your claim you ignore my response and just repeat the same nonense, as if this, in some weird way, gives Joseph Smith a free pass on his failed translations.
It isn't a strawman. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God. He couldn't read Egyptian Hieroglyphics, nor did the knowledge exist at the time.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:There is nothing desperate about it. It is simply a logical assertion
What is? You're not speaking with any degree of coherence now.
There is nothing desperate in the view that the Book of Abraham was revealed.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:IF the Book of Abraham is inspired and a true representation of Abraham's writings, then the Egyptian papyri could not possibly be the source.
More importantly, since the Egyptian papri could not possibly be used to produce a Book of Abraham, then Joseph Smith could not have been a true Prophet.
But he was a true prophet. He revealed the original writings of Abraham.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:What Joseph Smith must have seen were the long lost original writings of Abraham and revealed them to us.
But there is no reason, aside from apologetic desperation, to propose "long long original writings." We already know that the source for the Book of Abraham is the scroll of Hor. All the evidence points to this as the source. Wherever we turn, whether historical statements or textual evidence in the KEP, the primary focus was on this document. A portion of that scroll was even canonized as the "commencement" of the record of Abraham. Now you can believe whatever convoluted theory you need to believe in order to maintain faith, but the fact is Joseph Smith never said any of these things you're coming up with. He never said he wasn't really translating, or that he was providing only "speculative annotations," etc. That's apologetic rhetoric you're trying to inject into the narrative as if we're just supposed to take it for granted. Joseph Smith made it perfectly clear the Book of Abraham was translated from Egyptian papyri. And you alread admitted to us that it is absurd to think it could have come from Egyptian papyri.
That is incorrect. It is not only plausible, but very reasonable from a Mormon perspective.

You know the Egyptian papyri do not contain the writings of Abraham, yet you insist Mormons must assume that is true based on the mistaken statements of Joseph Smith. You claim it is speculative to state that the original writings of Abraham were instead restored (revealed) by Joseph Smith. It is disingenuous of you to insist Mormons must accept mistaken statements from Joseph Smith that you know are factualy untrue. When a plausible alternative is offered (that fits the facts), you claim that is a desperate proposal when it is a very reasonable understanding of how Joseph Smith translated and what may have been shown to him.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Tobin wrote:This should be perfectly acceptable to any LDS since they already believe Joseph Smith revealed the Book of Mormon in much the same way.
On the contrary, the Church teaches that the Book of Mormon narrative was literally on the plates Smith claimed to have translates, just as the Book of Abraham narrative was literally written on the Egyptian papyri in his possession.
This is unimpressive. The Church has often made confused and mistaken statements. Relying on that for the best view of Church history and documents is unreasonable.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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