Facsimile 3

[_Analytics]

Tobin,

I've been trying to follow your logic here. Does the following pretty-much capture what you think happened?

Joseph sees the papyrus, and as a fallible man incorrectly says that they purport to claim the writings of Abraham. As a fallible man, he incorrectly thinks it is very important that the church gets a hold of these manuscripts, so he takes out the church's checkbook and purchases the mummies and the papyri. As a fallible man, he made up b.s. about the facsimiles and published it for the church in the Times and Seasons. As a fallible man, he sat down and endeavored to translate what was written on the papyri. At that point, God entered the picture and revealed to him a translation of something Abraham had actually written. But as a fallible man, Joseph Smith didn't know he was translating a lost document and thought he was translating the document in front of him.

Is that basically right? If so, do you think the church should remove the facsimiles with their false translations from the Book of Abraham? The introduction to the Book of Abraham quotes Joseph Smith as saying it is, "a Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt."

Do you think that should be changed in the Book of Abraham to the following? "A translation by the power of God of some ancient Records that have long been destroyed and which we've never seen, and are totally unrelated to the ancient records that fell into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt."

[_Themis]

OK, I'm convinced. Tobin is a sockpuppet of some critic, probably Darth_J, for the purposes of making apologists look dumb.

Like, as in dumber than they normally do.

Tobin has been bringing us Joseph and God, Dumb and Dumber, theory for a little while now.

[_Shulem]

You are being completely disingenuous. Neither God nor an Angel appeared and handed the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate the papyri, unlike the Gold Plates. Joseph Smith orchestrated this and felt it was ordered by God.

Now, whom shall we believe? Prophet Tobin or Joseph Smith and his companions who were actually there and wrote about what they were actually doing?

Wilford Woodruff's Journal February 1842

"The Lord is blessing Joseph with power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God; to translate . . . . ancient records and hieroglyphics old as Abraham or Adam which caused our hearts to burn within us while we beheld their glorious truths opened unto us. Joseph the Seer has presented us some of the Book of Abraham which was written by his own hand but hid from the knowledge of man for the last four thousand years but has now come to light through the mercy of God."

"Joseph has had these records in his possession for several years but has never presented them before the world in the English language until now, but he is now about to publish it to the world, or parts of it, by publishing it in the Times and Seasons for Joseph the Seer is now the Editor of that paper and Elder Taylor assists him in writing while it has fallen to my lot to take charge of the business part of the establishment. I have had the privilege this day of assisting in the setting the type for printing the first piece of the Book of Abraham that is to be presented to the inhabitants of the earth in the last days."

Paul O

[_Bret Ripley]

"A translation by the power of God of some ancient Records that have long been destroyed and which we've never seen, and are totally unrelated to the ancient records that fell into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt."

Congratulations, you have won the interwebs. Play again (Y/N)?

[_Chap]

You are being completely disingenuous. Neither God nor an Angel appeared and handed the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate the papyri, unlike the Gold Plates. Joseph Smith orchestrated this and felt it was ordered by God.

Now, whom shall we believe? Prophet Tobin or Joseph Smith and his companions who were actually there and wrote about what they were actually doing?
...

Those guys never spoke with the Panda like Tobin has. What the hell did they know about anything?

[_Shulem]

OK, I'm convinced. Tobin is a sockpuppet of some critic, probably Darth_J, for the purposes of making apologists look dumb.

Like, as in dumber than they normally do.

Tobin isn't real. He's just playing a game and trying to piss us off.

Paul O

[_Themis]

Tobin isn't real. He's just playing a game and trying to piss us off.

Paul O

I find it more interesting to see the lengths people will go to maintain certain beliefs. It puzzled my before, but I think I understand a little better why.

[_Cylon]

You are welcome to speak with God anytime you wish. Mormons believe Joseph Smith because God tells them he's a prophet of God. I'm surprised you never spoke with God and obtained that witness when you were a Mormon. That is definitely why you are no longer a Mormon.

No, Mormons believe Joseph Smith because they get a burning in their bosom when they ask if he's a prophet of God, and they interpret that to be an answer from the Holy Ghost. No one I know in real life has ever claimed that God actually spoke to them, and very few of the prophets and apostles have, either. Bully for you that God thinks you're special enough to speak to personally, but claiming that is the basis for most Mormons' testimonies is bullcrap and you know it.

[_Tobin]

Joseph sees the papyrus, and as a fallible man incorrectly says that they purport to claim the writings of Abraham. As a fallible man, he incorrectly thinks it is very important that the church gets a hold of these manuscripts, so he takes out the church's checkbook and purchases the mummies and the papyri. As a fallible man, he made up b.s. about the facsimiles and published it for the church in the Times and Seasons. As a fallible man, he sat down and endeavored to translate what was written on the papyri. At that point, God entered the picture and revealed to him a translation of something Abraham had actually written. But as a fallible man, Joseph Smith didn't know he was translating a lost document and thought he was translating the document in front of him.

There are a few things to bear in mind here. Joseph Smith had translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God and was quite confident (too confident) in "his" abilities. The Book of Abraham translation was unnecessary and not commanded of the Lord. I believe this debacle stems from Joseph Smith, in his pride, taking this on because of what he had done and thought this wouldn't be a problem. After all, aren't all ancient texts written by ancient prophets?!?

Two problems that immediately arise from this are:
1) As we know, Joseph Smith had no knoweldge about Egyptian papyri, the Egyptian Hieroglpyhics, or their history. He simply can not ascertain (nor can anyone from the period), what the Egyptian papyri really are and contain.
2) The Egyptians were pagans and had no interest in preserving or keeping an account of Abraham and no papyri would contain writings of Abraham from that period. They would write about their own myths and stories.

So, in stumbles Joseph Smith, with a mind full of false concepts and delusions and he immediately goes to work on these Egyptian papyri. The Lord reveals the "true" original writings of Abraham, uncorrupted with the Egyptian myths and stories. Joseph Smith, in his arrogance and ignorant pride, immediately assumes what is revealed is what is actually contained on these papyri. His subsequent statements (which are mistakes) clearly indicate this thinking when he says the papyri were written by the hand of Abraham (not a chance, the papyri are not old enough) and contain the writings of Abraham and Joseph (again, not a chance, they are Egyptian). And the icing on the cake is his attempts at annotating the facsmilies (which are also Egyptian) with silly and incorrect references.

Now, I believe this is a much more accurate view of what happened.

Is that basically right? If so, do you think the church should remove the facsimiles with their false translations from the Book of Abraham? The introduction to the Book of Abraham quotes Joseph Smith as saying it is, "a Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt."

Do you think that should be changed in the Book of Abraham to the following? "A translation by the power of God of some ancient Records that have long been destroyed and which we've never seen, and are totally unrelated to the ancient records that fell into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt."

I absolutely think the facsimiles should be removed from the canon. They are incorrect. And the caption above the Book of Abraham should also be understood with the proper view as being a purely revealed text. It is not a correct translation of the papyri and should not be represented that way.

I am also realistic and do not believe the Church is likely to do this at any time in the near future. However, I believe it will eventually.

Now, I do not buy the view that Joseph Smith *always* thought that he was translating from the Egyptain papyri. Even though many of his initial (and incorrect) statements indicate he may have thought this, that does not mean he was not eventually corrected. Both Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley came to this conclusion as well.

Ed Ashment, in his article in "Sunstone" magazine, called "The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham" (Sunstone, Dec. 1979, pg. 44) states

...the prophet may not have felt that he had translated the Book of Abraham from any of the Joseph Smith Papyri.

And Hugh Nibley agreed with this view in his response to Ed Ashment, "Sunstone, vol. iv (1979), 49-51."

[Guest]

You are welcome to speak with God anytime you wish. Mormons believe Joseph Smith because God tells them he's a prophet of God. I'm surprised you never spoke with God and obtained that witness when you were a Mormon. That is definitely why you are no longer a Mormon.

No, Mormons believe Joseph Smith because they get a burning in their bosom when they ask if he's a prophet of God, and they interpret that to be an answer from the Holy Ghost. No one I know in real life has ever claimed that God actually spoke to them, and very few of the prophets and apostles have, either. Bully for you that God thinks you're special enough to speak to personally, but claiming that is the basis for most Mormons' testimonies is bullcrap and you know it.

As I've said Cylon, this is a necessary step. Otherwise, it is literally impossible to maintain a belief in Mormonism. As I've said, the claims are preposterous. Anyone who reads Joseph Smith's claims, the Book of Mormon clains, the Bible's claims and so on should immediately realize this.