John Dehlin: Initial Criticisms and Impressions Part II

[_Shulem]

So honestly, I don't really see the point of this series of posts, Droopy. What are you trying to accomplish?

He doesn't work for a living so he hasn't anything to do with his time other than make up stupid threads.

Paul O

[_Droopy]

... (and there are far better people than him to help people negotiate a crisis of faith, in my view. Sending someone with a crisis of faith to John Dehlin is a bit like sending someone having suicidal thoughts to see Jack Kevorkian).

It's not "a bit" anything like that. It's more like sending an alcoholic to see Dr. Drew for some high profile counseling.

- VRDRC

No, actually, it would be like sending an alcoholic to see you.

You wouldn't care one way or another if I destroyed my life.

[_Droopy]

So far, only Cylon and Sansfoy have bothered to actually engage any of the actual arguments/points I've made. In the case of Cylon, the logical, analytical quality of the argument is quite poor, but at least he's engaging a bit.

Beyond that, we have the usual anti-Mormon fang bearing and cut downs in lieu of thought.

But, we knew that.

[_Madison54]

Droopy,
You can discuss and analyze John Dehlin in as many threads as you want to create and you can continue posting lengthy, wordy posts.

But....

The bottom line is that Dehlin's supporters are growing in numbers and the church's baptism numbers are shrinking. So that tells us he is serving a purpose and also what he is doing is attracting followers who need what he has to offer in his efforts to help them.

Also, whatever he is doing is also attracting a lot of attention from apologists and church leaders. They know he's answering questions and meeting needs they have failed to meet.

I have met John Dehlin and I was taken aback by how humble, soft spoken and shy he actually was in person. Quite different from the demeanor of many GAs and apologists who I've been in personal contact with.

[_Droopy]

The bottom line is that Dehlin's supporters are growing in numbers and the church's baptism numbers are shrinking.

And more power to them. They all have their agency and are free to use it as they will .

So that tells us he is serving a purpose and also what he is doing is attracting followers who need what he has to offer in his efforts to help them.

Yes, he is serving his purpose - assisting in the shrinking of the numbers of those faithful to the gospel and its standards.

Also, whatever he is doing is also attracting a lot of attention from apologists and church leaders. They know he's answering questions and meeting needs they have failed to meet.

Nonsense. Its a project of personal self justification and the rehabilitation of his own bad conscience.

[_sansfoy]

Also, whatever he is doing is also attracting a lot of attention from apologists and church leaders. They know he's answering questions and meeting needs they have failed to meet.

Nonsense. Its a project of personal self justification and the rehabilitation of his own bad conscience.

Many people who struggle with their testimonies go to John instead of to either their bishop or exmormon.org. There must be a reason they are drawn to seek a middle way. Why is that?

[_Droopy]

Many people who struggle with their testimonies go to John instead of to either their bishop or exmormon.org. There must be a reason they are drawn to seek a middle way. Why is that?

Ready for a long, wordy post, Sans?

[_sansfoy]

Many people who struggle with their testimonies go to John instead of to either their bishop or exmormon.org. There must be a reason they are drawn to seek a middle way. Why is that?

Ready for a long, wordy post, Sans?

How about a pithy paragraph? If the topic still interests me, I can ask clarifying questions or offer rebuttals and we can engage in an actual dialog.

[_Cylon]

Incorrect. One can be a "Mormon," and a member of the Church, without supporting one jot or tittle of its truth claims. Whether, however, one can be a Latter day Saint - a disciple of Christ and preparer and defender of his Kingdom, as understood within this Church, and not believe its core truth claims, is another question entirely.

When did Dehlin ever claim to be "a disciple of Christ and preparer and defender of his Kingdom, as understood within this Church"? He may have claimed to be a disciple of Christ as he understands it, but I'm not even sure about that. Mostly he just claims to be doing the best he can to help people whose lives are being damaged by the church.

And he can certainly come up with GA quotes to say that at least we shouldn't kick such people out of the church.

Who's talking about doing that?

It's the general outlook of those who have problems with Mormon Stories. I have certainly seen some express dismay that Dehlin's priesthood leaders have not taken more disciplinary action against him. But more than that, you seem to be expressing the viewpoint that those who don't have a literal belief in the church's truth claims don't have a place in the church. If I'm reading you wrong please correct me.

And until the brethren decide they want to make a change and do start kicking people out of the church merely for not believing enough mormony stuff, Dehlin's free to keep doing his podcasts and making Facebook groups and whatever.

Yes...but I don't recall any of this being about his freedom to do anything.

Then what exactly is any of this about? If you're trying to warn the saints not to listen to Mormon Stories I don't know why you're posting it here, of all places. I'm still not sure what you think the point of any of this is.

And heck, even if they do eventually excommunicate him, that won't stop anything. It would just make it less likely that those who do have a crisis of faith will stay in the church.

But John Dehlin has no problem whatsoever with assisting people having a crisis of faith in leaving the Church. That's one of the central attractions of his project (and there are far better people than him to help people negotiate a crisis of faith, in my view. Sending someone with a crisis of faith to John Dehlin is a bit like sending someone having suicidal thoughts to see Jack Kevorkian).

By that I meant that excommunicating John Dehlin will be a clear sign that those who lack belief in the truth claims of the church are unwelcome, and thus those who have a crisis of faith will be even less likely to try to find a way to stay in it. I realize that he has no problem with people who try to leave the church and will help those who decide to do so. He also doesn't have a problem with those who want to stay in and will try to help them too. The big difference between him and you is that he believes that some people truly will have better lives if they leave the church than if they stay in it. You, I'm pretty sure, believe the church is the best thing for everybody. Everything else is just window dressing.

[_Cylon]

Also, whatever he is doing is also attracting a lot of attention from apologists and church leaders. They know he's answering questions and meeting needs they have failed to meet.

Nonsense. Its a project of personal self justification and the rehabilitation of his own bad conscience.

How do you know he suffers from his conscience? Did you become a mind reader?