Facsimile 3

[_Themis]

Here is an apologetic. Maybe Joseph was corrected about it but was killed before he could tell anyone. This is the mentality of the catalyst theory. They both have the same amount of evidence to support them. 0

[_Tobin]

Now, I do not buy the view that Joseph Smith *always* thought that he was translating from the Egyptain papyri. Even though many of his initial (and incorrect) statements indicate he may have thought this, that does not mean he was not eventually corrected. Both Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley came to this conclusion as well.
Ed Ashment, in his article in "Sunstone" magazine, called "The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham" (Sunstone, Dec. 1979, pg. 44) states
Quote: "...the prophet may not have felt that he had translated the Book of Abraham from any of the Joseph Smith Papyri."
And Hugh Nibley agreed with this view in his response to Ed Ashment, "Sunstone, vol. iv (1979), 49-51."

Talk about BS. This is apologetics at it's best. Just assert the opposite of what the evidence tells us and provide none to support this BS assertion.

Themis, you are welcome to speak with God any time you wish about it. Mormon claims have a Trump card in that regard. I find your shocking lack of familiarity with Mormon claims silly. Afterall, we are talking about people who claim to have seen God, Angels, and had Gold Plates land in their lap. Most Mormon understandings of subsequent teachings and revelations stem from this belief (which you don't honestly hold nor share).

[_Samantabhadra]

His attempts to change the facsimile depictions (and later statements), for example indicate that the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view.

This does not follow. You claim that the papyri have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. But the facsimiles are facsimiles of the vignettes on the papyri.

Either (1) the papyri have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, in which case the facsimiles have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, whether they are "corrected" or not; or else (2) the papyri are related to the Book of Abraham, in which case you have just contradicted your own argument.

[_Tobin]

His attempts to change the facsimile depictions (and later statements), for example indicate that the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view.

This does not follow. You claim that the papyri have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. But the facsimiles are facsimiles of the vignettes on the papyri.

Either (1) the papyri have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, in which case the facsimiles have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, whether they are "corrected" or not; or else (2) the papyri are related to the Book of Abraham, in which case you have just contradicted your own argument.

Sure it does. The narrative is that Abraham made some original writings and depictions. The Egyptians would have no reason to preserve these writings or depictions in their original form. Instead they would have substituted their own stories and mythic characters in place of what Abraham wrote and depicted. If Joseph Smith was trying to restore these original depictions, then his changes would be perfectly plausible.

[_Equality]

Tobin argues that God could not or would not correct Joseph Smith on his completely false assertions about the papyri, the facsimiles, and his own ability to translate Egyptian. God did this because if God were to correct Joseph Smith and set the record straight, that would make Joseph Smith a "sock puppet." At the same time, Tobin argues that the text of the Book of Abraham really was written by Abraham thousands of years ago (but not on the papyri in Joseph Smith's possession) and that God, while allowing Joseph Smith to lie to the world, revealed to him the ancient writings of Abraham.

So, wouldn't that make Joseph Smith God's "sock puppet" with respect to the text of the Book of Abraham? If God could give to Joseph Smith the ancient words of Abraham, why couldn't he correct the stuff that Smith got completely wrong? And if God doesn't correct Joseph Smith's mistakes in the facsimiles, how can one trust what is in the text? Maybe that's filled with Joseph's own "arrogant" musings and personal opinions mingled in there with God's inspiration. If God made sure the text that Joseph produced was pristine, an accurate rendition of Abraham's ancient writings, then God was clearly willing and able to prevent Joseph Smith from introducing his own thoughts into the text. So why wouldn't God do the same with respect to the facsimiles? You can't have it both ways: either God controls the translation process to prevent error from creeping in, or he doesn't. You can't have God acting one way with respect to the facsimiles and another with respect to the text, unless you are just making things up as you go. Oh, wait, that's exactly what's going on.

The whole argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But what's remarkable is this: it's the best the apologists have got on the Book of Abraham. How pathetic is that?

That is NOT what I'm saying at all Equality. I'm stating that Joseph Smith's mistaken statements and attempts are understandable given his lack of knowledge and the fact he was a fallible human being and NOT God's sock puppet. His attempts to change the facsimile depictions (and later statements), for example indicate that the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view.

What? Are you kidding? The Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view? But you have said multiple times that the facsimiles in the PoGP are wrong and you've said they should be removed. Where did God correct Joseph Smith's view? You are completely inconsistent and not making any sense. If this is the information that God has revealed to you, then you are proving my point: God is a trickster and a colossal prick. Not only did he not correct Joseph Smith, allowing him to get everything wrong in the bogus Book of Abraham. God has also made a fool out of you. What a dick this Mormon God is.

[_Tobin]

That is NOT what I'm saying at all Equality. I'm stating that Joseph Smith's mistaken statements and attempts are understandable given his lack of knowledge and the fact he was a fallible human being and NOT God's sock puppet. His attempts to change the facsimile depictions (and later statements), for example indicate that the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view.

What? Are you kidding? The Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view? But you have said multiple times that the facsimiles in the PoGP are wrong and you've said they should be removed. Where did God correct Joseph Smith's view? You are completely inconsistent and not making any sense. If this is the information that God has revealed to you, then you are proving my point: God is a trickster and a colossal prick. Not only did he not correct Joseph Smith, allowing him to get everything wrong in the bogus Book of Abraham. God has also made a fool out of you. What a dick this Mormon God is.

Not really. There were changes in the depictions made, but they were dismissed as mistakes. I don't believe they were mistakes.

[_Equality]

Not really. There were changes in the depictions made, but they were dismissed as mistakes. I don't believe they were mistakes.

You are speaking gibberish.

[_Tobin]

Not really. There were changes in the depictions made, but they were dismissed as mistakes. I don't believe they were mistakes.

You are speaking gibberish.

I believe changes to the Egyptian facsimile WERE NOT a mistake. When the Church "corrected" these changes to the depictions and used the original Egyptian depictions instead - THAT WAS the mistake.

[_Themis]

Themis, you are welcome to speak with God any time you wish about it. Mormon claims have a Trump card in that regard. I find your shocking lack of familiarity with Mormon claims silly. Afterall, we are talking about people who claim to have seen God, Angels, and had Gold Plates land in their lap. Most Mormon understandings of subsequent teachings and revelations stem from this belief (which you don't honestly hold nor share).

Funny you didn't even address my post. You assume I never asked, yet it's ironic that this is what you want to argue with Joseph that he didn't seek God about the papyri. You also don't understand the LDS church and what it teaches and doesn't teach. It doesn't teach that God will personally show up, but that the HG is the one who is supposed to reveal truth. One wonders why God would show up to tobin uninvited yet doesn't show up to others who actually are diligently seeking him. Maybe God didn't really show up.

Sure it does. The narrative is that Abraham made some original writings and depictions. The Egyptians would have no reason to preserve these writings or depictions in their original form. Instead they would have substituted their own stories and mythic characters in place of what Abraham wrote and depicted. If Joseph Smith was trying to restore these original depictions, then his changes would be perfectly plausible.

I see you are moving your position again. Now the explanations for the facsimiles are inspired. You sure are inconsistent, and others are right that you are not making any sense. OH well, it's hard trying to defend Joseph and God as dumb and dumber.

[_Themis]

I believe changes to the Egyptian facsimile WERE NOT a mistake. When the Church "corrected" these changes to the depictions and used the original Egyptian depictions instead - THAT WAS the mistake.

??? LOL You are still talking gibberish.