Tobin wrote:... Mormonism is a revealed religion. Without some witness of God, Angels, or other gifts of the spirit and miracles - there is no reason to believe in it. ... Anything he could tell us had to be revealed and there is no reason to believe his claims unless God reveals to you that he was God's prophet.
Wow. Tobin believes that if a religion is said to be a 'revealed religion', the normal grounds for belief in that religion are a personal conversation with some deity, who tells you it is true.
That is just a trifle ... well, non-standard.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Tobin wrote:Billions of people believe in God and prophets. Seems like it is plausible enough for a large portion of the human population of the planet.
And this is the guy who complained about an 'argumentum ad populum' when I said I doubted whether anyone would say they agreed with a position he had expressed.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Tobin wrote:And as I've pointed out repeatedly, you never had a good basis to believe in Mormonism to begin with. Mormonism is a revealed religion. Without some witness of God, Angels, or other gifts of the spirit and miracles - there is no reason to believe in it. The claims are all about that type of stuff. The Book of Abraham, to even have been translated, had to be a miraculous event. Joseph Smith certainly didn't possess a knoweldge of Egyptian Hieroglyphics or any knowledge of ancient languages, cultures, and so on. Anything he could tell us had to be revealed and there is no reason to believe his claims unless God reveals to you that he was God's prophet.
Why would God expect you to pray to Him to receive an answer that a religion is true if there is no rational basis for belief? If, as you say, there is no reason to believe in it, why pray about it? If someone told me that there was a glowing banana slug that can foretell the future in my garage, should I go into the garage and look or just pray about it?
I don't think I've ever recommended just simply sit around and pray to God all day. I've stated that one should seek God and speak with God.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I don't think I've ever recommended just simply sit around and pray to God all day. I've stated that one should seek God and speak with God.
But you're asking people to seek God and speak with Him without any reason to believe in Him. You don't find that strange?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:I don't think I've ever recommended just simply sit around and pray to God all day. I've stated that one should seek God and speak with God.
But you're asking people to seek God and speak with Him without any reason to believe in Him. You don't find that strange?
Inviting others to exercise faith or mere belief is not strange. Christ did it, Paul did it, and it seems have worked great so far.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Inviting others to exercise faith or mere belief is not strange. Christ did it, Paul did it, and it seems have worked great so far.
I don't think Jesus or Paul said (as Tobin has of Mormonism): "Hey! These beliefs I am putting before you are completely implausible and there is no evidence in support of them in any normal sense of the word. But all the same, why don't you ask the Deity Formerly Known as Yahweh to tell you they are true?"
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Tobin wrote:Billions of people believe in God and prophets. Seems like it is plausible enough for a large portion of the human population of the planet.
Irrelevant to the issue here which is the catalyst theory of the Book of Abraham. These billions of others have nothing to do with it other then a weak attempt to distract from the issue.
Tobin wrote:Billions of people believe in God and prophets. Seems like it is plausible enough for a large portion of the human population of the planet.
Irrelevant to the issue here which is the catalyst theory of the Book of Abraham. These billions of others have nothing to do with it other then a weak attempt to distract from the issue.
There you go again, comparing apples and oranges. You really like to mix up your fruits.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
When it comes to the Book of Abraham I don't care what any apologist says. The bottom line is that those who are in control of the church still claim that the Book of Abraham is a translation from the papyri that Joseph Smith bought and that papyri was written by Abraham. It has been proven by experts that Joseph Smith’s translation of the papyri is incorrect. PHDs and armchair apologists can say anything they want about how it might have happened but until the church leadership says something, the apologists’ opinions carry zero weight and we shouldn’t be acting like they do.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
Tobin wrote:Billions of people believe in God and prophets. Seems like it is plausible enough for a large portion of the human population of the planet.
themis wrote:Irrelevant to the issue here which is the catalyst theory of the Book of Abraham. These billions of others have nothing to do with it other then a weak attempt to distract from the issue.
Tobin wrote:There you go again, comparing apples and oranges. You really like to mix up your fruits.
Tobin, you are the one who said the critical argument against the Book of Abraham has no value because it is advanced by folks who do not believe in God. Then when it is pointed out that billions of people who believe in God also do not believe in the Book of Abraham, you complain that it is apples and oranges. Your inconsistencies are as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky, to borrow from our fictional friend Abraham.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo