Tobin wrote:Fascinating. The scriptures don't agree with you. I wonder why that is?
The scriptures don't agree with me that all these people haven't seen God, or are you saying the scripture say Tobin has seen God?
The scriptures speak of people seeing God. You should get out more and do a bit more reading of something more than this forum.
Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:Just as I thought. You wouldn't consider a plausible alternative because of your misconceptions. Again, that is no surprise coming from you.
Your extreme bias is showing again by stating things you don't know. You don't have a plausible alternative to see who would accept it, and you have the most plausible one that rejects it. With that and so many other issues it's not hard to see why so many change their beliefs about Mormonism.
That's just funny coming from you.
Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:Again, your reading problems aren't my problem. I was being flippant. Of course you don't accept the traditional apologetic position. Duh.
Yet you falsely accuse me of being disingenuous, but I suppose distracting from the issue is all that's left to you.
It really is disingenous for you to insist on a strawman arguments that you can easily knock down and ignore all the alternatives. I know my points escape you, but again that is not my problem to solve.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:The scriptures speak of people seeing God. You should get out more and do a bit more reading of something more than this forum.
I never suggested it doesn't, but even that list is small and only claimed.
That's just funny coming from you.
Your the one stating things you can't know.
It really is disingenous for you to insist on a strawman arguments that you can easily knock down and ignore all the alternatives. I know my points escape you, but again that is not my problem to solve.
Yet you don't show what my straw-men arguments are or why they are fallacious. Very telling.
Now if we go back to the explanations of the facsimiles, they are as much a part of the claimed revelation from God as the text is, yet they are tailor made for the Egyptian depictions. Fac 3 is the worst of the bunch and shows Joseph making it up.
It really is disingenous for you to insist on a strawman arguments that you can easily knock down and ignore all the alternatives. I know my points escape you, but again that is not my problem to solve.
Yet you don't show what my straw-men arguments are or why they are fallacious. Very telling.
Now if we go back to the explanations of the facsimiles, they are as much a part of the claimed revelation from God as the text is, yet they are tailor made for the Egyptian depictions. Fac 3 is the worst of the bunch and shows Joseph making it up.
A strawman. Here it is. Take a good look. They are Egyptian facsimiles and not the original Facsimiles done by Abraham that I'm talking about.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:A strawman. Here it is. Take a good look. They are Egyptian facsimiles and not the original Facsimiles done by Abraham that I'm talking about.
What?? Joseph Smith said those were the original drawings done by Abraham.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:A strawman. Here it is. Take a good look. They are Egyptian facsimiles and not the original Facsimiles done by Abraham that I'm talking about.
What?? Joseph Smith said those were the original drawings done by Abraham.
And Joseph Smith was mistaken in his initial statements.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:And Joseph Smith was mistaken in his initial statements.
Just so I'm understanding, are you saying that the facsimile that Joseph translated wasn't from Abraham, therefore Joseph Smith was mistaken? Further, are you saying that somewhere out there was an original drawing that Abraham made that is the source of the facsimile explanations, only Joseph Smith didn't have that at hand?
Sorry, dude, but you're not exactly giving Joseph a solid defense here.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:And Joseph Smith was mistaken in his initial statements.
Just so I'm understanding, are you saying that the facsimile that Joseph translated wasn't from Abraham, therefore Joseph Smith was mistaken? Further, are you saying that somewhere out there was an original drawing that Abraham made that is the source of the facsimile explanations, only Joseph Smith didn't have that at hand?
Sorry, dude, but you're not exactly giving Joseph a solid defense here.
No, I'm saying Joseph Smith was mistaken in his initial assessment as to the source and contents of the Egyptain papyri (due to the fact he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics and didn't know the history of the papyri). This is a view that I believe was ultimately corrected by the Lord as I've noted Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley thought as well.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:No, I'm saying Joseph Smith was mistaken in his initial assessment as to the source and contents of the Egyptain papyri (due to the fact he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics and didn't know the history of the papyri). This is a view that I believe was ultimately corrected by the Lord as I've noted Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley thought as well.
But the Lord has never bothered to correct the canonized scripture where it says it was written by the hand of God on papyrus and that the facsimiles were part of it. The Lord has allowed his prophets running his one true church to perpetuate Joseph Smith's errors but has told Tobin that this is what really happened. After 12 pages of this it doesn't make any more sense now than when we started down this rabbit hole.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Tobin wrote:A strawman. Here it is. Take a good look. They are Egyptian facsimiles and not the original Facsimiles done by Abraham that I'm talking about.
Sorry, but no. I understand what you are saying. I am asking you to deal with the explanations which are tailor made for the Egyptian depictions.
Equality wrote:But the Lord has never bothered to correct the canonized scripture where it says it was written by the hand of God on papyrus and that the facsimiles were part of it. The Lord has allowed his prophets running his one true church to perpetuate Joseph Smith's errors but has told Tobin that this is what really happened. After 12 pages of this it doesn't make any more sense now than when we started down this rabbit hole.
The Lord corrected Joseph in his error, but not the prophets who later canonized the scripture? That God must be some kind of practical joker to leave for more than 150 years a mistranslation that makes his chosen prophet look like an obvious fraud.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado