Peterson, Hamblin, Schryver Online Antics: Request for Help

[_Yoda]

Totally. It will be just like Alma the Younger on the road to Damascus.

Whoops! I meant Saul and the four sons of Mosiah.

Do, or do not. There is not try. - Gandalf, Harry Potter 7

Actually, that quote is from Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back.

[_DonBradley]

If leaving Mormonism to go believe something else wether religious or not is treated as one of the greatest evils, how come this is still part of the canon?

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The question of whether we think someone should be allowed, under the law, to practice their religious beliefs is separate from the question of whether we think those beliefs are true. (If you disagree, then you presumably think I should not legally be allowed to practice Mormonism.) Thus Mormons believe it should be legal to apostatize from the church, even though they believe this is a spiritual disaster. If you'd like to change this, the US jas a constitutional amendment process you could pursue.

Don

[Guest]

Hi EA,

I'm glad to know you spend so much time in worthwhile pursuits. And based on our chats from way back, I'm not at all surprised.

My response to you expressing disgust that I'm grateful for being re-embraced was meant only to suggest that this wasn't one of them. To my mind, it has genuine disvalue.

As I said before, it doesn't follow from a group valuing loyalty that all disloyalty will be forgiven in light of present loyalty--a distinction I think its fair to expect a thinker of your caliber to keep in mind.

Best wishes in your many cool worthwhile endeavors. You are awesome! In spite of my comment for rhetorical effect earlier, I really wish far more people would do as many worthwhile things as you do, EA.

What are your current areas of inquiry in philosophy?

Don

[_DonBradley]

EA,

You're right that I was exaggerating with the comparison to Scratch. Perhaps Kishkumen would be a better parallel? My point was that I targeted Dan more than anyone else did at the time.

You're also right that the relationship at the time was mutually snarky. It got better after he and I talked in person.

Finally, you're also right that in some cases people (not including Dan) were vitriolic toward me while I was out of the church and are now very friendly, and that this is wrong. Not only is it wrong on just a general human level; it is particularly beneath the standard required of a Latter-day Saint. If I ever act like that, flame me, roast me, and kick me off the board.

Don

[_Drifting]

The question of whether we think someone should be allowed, under the law, to practice their religious beliefs is separate from the question of whether we think those beliefs are true. (If you disagree, then you presumably think I should not legally be allowed to practice Mormonism.) Thus Mormons believe it should be legal to apostatize from the church, even though they believe this is a spiritual disaster. If you'd like to change this, the US jas a constitutional amendment process you could pursue.

Don

I think a more apt example would be, is it right that you should be shunned by your non Mormon friends simply because you've decided to believe in Mormonism? If no, then Mormons shouldn't shun people who leave Mormonism...but they do.

[_DonBradley]

I could not agree more, Drifting.

I can't see anything good that comes from treating someone poorly. I also find it inconsistent with my faith.

Don

[_Drifting]

I could not agree more, Drifting.

I can't see anything good that comes from treating someone poorly. I also find it inconsistent with my faith.

Don

Do you think that you are more likely (not that you weren't anyway) to treat apostates and people 'drifting' out of belief with more understanding having done that journey yourself?

[_DonBradley]

I could not agree more, Drifting.

I can't see anything good that comes from treating someone poorly. I also find it inconsistent with my faith.

Don

Do you think that you are more likely (not that you weren't anyway) to treat apostates and people 'drifting' out of belief with more understanding having done that journey yourself?

Absolutely. I'm even willing to tolerate you, Drifting!

;)

While I want my fellow Latter-day Saints to continue in the vigorous defense of the faith, I would like to help them also understand what people go through when they "drift" and to accept them as people and treat them kindly.

Don

[_Drifting]

Absolutely. I'm even willing to tolerate you, Drifting!

;)

How rude!

While I want my fellow Latter-day Saints to continue in the vigorous defense of the faith, I would like to help them also understand what people go through when they "drift" and to accept them as people and treat them kindly.

Don

I think perhaps the reaction to a gospel 'drifter' by the membership speeds up the journey out. Wards/Classes tend to close ranks and block out any questions the troubled individual might want an open and frank discussion about.

The reaction by leaders and members certainly drove me to look elsewhere for discussion and answers. I got them, but they were tainted by the knowledge (rightly or wrongly) that the Church wanted the information kept from me; and by the fact that members, now thst i have the answers, treat me as a danger.

I think only Jensen has recognised that this is probably the biggest retention issue that they face. Sadly, the outcome of him speaking out was he got his marching orders.

[Guest]

While I want my fellow Latter-day Saints to continue in the vigorous defense of the faith, I would like to help them also understand what people go through when they "drift" and to accept them as people and treat them kindly.

Don

Don:

The next time you see Wade, please try to dissuade him from this notion (shared by many apologists):

With all due respect, sometimes the stumblers in faith aren't the best ones to speak about what is the best way to avoid loss of faith

I'm glad (and not surprised at all) that Dan has welcomed you back with open arms, but my guess is that many other apologists share the view espoused by Wade above and continue to view you with suspicion. I wish you all the best in your attempts to help folks in the church deal with doubters; the church really needs it.