My Testimony.

[_Tobin]

Well, sure, but unless you're willing to use your reason to contradict something God has told you then it's a meaningless distinction. If God told you to do something crazy, would you disobey him?

Depends. If he told me to apologize to gramps and say I'm sorry (as crazy as that may sound), I would. If he told me to push a button to start World War 3, I'd tell him to jump in a lake. And I'd describe the color and temperature of the water, and the longitude and latitude of its location too.

[_Cicero]

In other words, you don't believe in the scriptures. Interesting. I thought you believed that Book of Mormon (as least parts) was inspiried. If not by God, then who?

Honestly, I don't know. It's still an open question for me. What I said was that I found passages of the Book of Mormon to be elegant and inspiring, by which I meant uplifting rather than inspired by God. The key point where we differ in our notions of epistemology is that I no longer trust the spiritual experiences I have had in the church . . . mainly because I cannot really distinguish them from the experiences that members of other faiths have had.

[_Cylon]

Well, sure, but unless you're willing to use your reason to contradict something God has told you then it's a meaningless distinction. If God told you to do something crazy, would you disobey him?

Depends. If he told me to apologize to gramps and say I'm sorry (as crazy as that may sound), I would. If he told me to push a button to start World War 3, I'd tell him to jump in a lake. And I'd describe the color and temperature of the water, and the longitude and latitude of its location too.

Fair enough. That second example was more along the lines of what I was getting at. I, too, believe that if there is a God, he would want us to use our reasoning in all situations, even when it concerns him.

[_Tobin]

In other words, you don't believe in the scriptures. Interesting. I thought you believed that Book of Mormon (as least parts) was inspiried. If not by God, then who?

Honestly, I don't know. It's still an open question for me. What I said was that I found passages of the Book of Mormon to be elegant and inspiring, by which I meant uplifting rather than inspired by God. The key point where we differ in our notions of epistemology is that I no longer trust the spiritual experiences I have had in the church . . . mainly because I cannot really distinguish them from the experiences that members of other faiths have had.

I can understand that concern, but I believe everyone has spiritual experiences and they mistakingly perceive as indicating their particular religion is true. I believe instead it means God is real and loves us and wishes to bless us with such experiences and has nothing to do with whatever religion we attribute it to.

[_Cicero]

I can understand that concern, but I believe everyone has spiritual experiences and they mistakingly perceive as indicating their particular religion is true. I believe instead it means God is real and loves us and wishes to bless us with such experiences and has nothing to do with whatever religion we attribute it to.

And as long as everyone also is willing to live and let live, then your view is OK. However, I believe that human history clearly shows that people in general are not willing to do that. What you call a mistaken perception is what leads to chaos and confusion and it is all too common.

[_Tobin]

I can understand that concern, but I believe everyone has spiritual experiences and they mistakingly perceive as indicating their particular religion is true. I believe instead it means God is real and loves us and wishes to bless us with such experiences and has nothing to do with whatever religion we attribute it to.

And as long as everyone also is willing to live and let live, then your view is OK. However, I believe that human history clearly shows that people in general are not willing to do that. What you call a mistaken perception is what leads to chaos and confusion and it is all too common.

We don't have to repeat the mistakes of the past. I believe education, temperance, mutual understanding, kindness, discussions (via the internet like we are doing) and so on can help us evolve into being better people.

[_why me]

Ray, I understand your testimony very well and I can appreciate your thoughts. I am not active but I cannot deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon because when I knelt down by my bed and prayed about it I received a positive witness that was very powerful. So, I hear what you are saying, ray. It is surprising that people here can deny that witness that they received when they also prayed about the Book of Mormon.

[_DarkHelmet]

It is surprising that people here can deny that witness that they received when they also prayed about the Book of Mormon.

Actually, I never received a witness when I prayed about it. Nothing happened. The only people on this forum that admit to receiving a strong witness from the Holy Ghost and then turning away from the church are you and Tobin. If I received the type of spiritual witness that you and Tobin claim to have received, there is no way I would be inactive.

[_why me]

Actually, I never received a witness when I prayed about it. Nothing happened.

That explains much. I can understand you much better now. It must be tough to be a member of a church that one doesn't have a testimony of. Or not a member and after having prayed about it, got no answer. But sometimes answers are given when we don't even realize it because we were expecting something else.

[_why me]

If I received the type of spiritual witness that you and Tobin claim to have received, there is no way I would be inactive.

You would be surprised how many people receive witnesses but they just can't do it. Just look at Ray. I understand him very well. And the witnesses? Same for them too.